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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5507
Hi,

Does anyone have a BK7m (or indeed any other BK series) sonar INS file for styles (not sounds) - if such a thing exists.

Thanks
Barry
3 months 2 weeks ago

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5508
This is INS-file for Cakewalk/Sonar

File Attachment:

File Name: BK-7m_V2.zip
File Size:31 KB

What is it "for styles (not sounds)"? From Sonar internal Style in BK-7 is not play.
From Sonar can be only select internal Style in BK-7 with command "Path Change" and CC00&CC32
Such an ins-file for Styles can be made by yourself following the pattern of an ins-file of sounds
3 months 2 weeks ago Last edit: 3 months 2 weeks ago by loshk.
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 10), Roland Fantom XR, Yamaha Motif-Rack ES, Roland M-GS64, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16DX, Kawai MAV-8, JBL 4312E
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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5509
Hi,

Thanks for this.

I looked inside the file but its not quite what I was looking for.

Basically I am looking to switch the styles of the BK7m from a computer (using Gig Performer) and I was looking for a complete list of the midi PC/LSB/MSB information for all the onboard styles as part of this project. I have VST which uses sonar ins files to output midi messages and it could use such an INS file to switch the styles too. I have tried it with individual midi messages and it works fine - I was just trying to avoid the situation of having to create the styles INS file myself (always better not to re-invent wheels).

Many thanks anyway.

Barry
3 months 2 weeks ago

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5510
Wouldn't it be simpler to use the existing PC/32/00 codes that call up Performances?

Your current system calls up style only, whereas a Performance can call up the total state of the arranger... Tones, splits, effects, volumes, arranger modes, MFX's, the whole shebang!
3 months 2 weeks ago
BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5520
Hi Diki,

I agree!

If the INS file had been available then it was worth asking for what I was trying to do - but actually cobbling one together is not worth the effort. I'll do it the way you suggested.

Thanks
Barry
3 months 2 weeks ago

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5523
Are you using Sonar live, or in the studio or at home?

Just curious to the workflow and needs you have. With more detailed info on that, I might be able to suggest an even better solution.
3 months 2 weeks ago
BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5526
[Apologies if this has been submitted twice. Somehow – I thought I submitted a reply, but it didn't appear on the forum ???]

Hi Diki,

Thanks for your offer of suggestions – that is much appreciated and very kind. However, there isn't actually a problem to be solved. I should say that I play as a hobbyist - but I will give you some background as someone may find it useful:-

I bought my BK7m several years ago and initially found it great - but I got fed up with the jog wheel approach to accessing everything - indeed the wheel failed because of the high usage and had to be replaced by Roland UK under warranty. I was a professional computer programmer, so always intended writing a software interface for the BK7m. This I started and a prototype was created fairly quickly. Unfortunately, I then hit a serious snag in that there appeared to be no way of controlling the volumes of the individual style instruments (i.e. drums, bass, ACC1, etc.) via midi - absolutely fundamental if you want to tweak the style information. "Nonsense!" - said technical support at Roland UK - "You do this!,” “Oh dear!” - they said - “Actually - there appears to be no way to change style volume - that must be an oversight and we will ask galactic support". I believe they did - but they never got an answer (that I heard) because as we all know: Roland are not interested in improving their existing arrangers - but like to re-invent new wheels (or features!) with every new generation. So with the jog-wheel irritating me even more, and no way of sorting out the midi style volume problem - I stopped the programming and fell out of love with the BK7m.

I then successfully moved on to VST instruments running in a real time host (Brainspawn Forte) and then about 9 months ago, when Brainspawn folded, I moved to a new host called Gig Performer ( gigperformer.com ). I am actually seriously impressed with this host which is designed specifically for live use. It works on Mac and PC (I'm PC); is incredibly stable; has great responsive support; is actively under development; does instantaneous real time loading of 'racks [sounds]' and is not outrageously expensive. Its strength is its intimate link to external hardware such as keyboards, iPads etc.. Its best to download a fully working 14 day demo to see - but you can create virtual racks (e.g. 19” rack like) which have 'virtual' knobs and 'virtual' switches and these items can interact with real keyboards and hardware via midi. They also perform the link to the controls of the VST instruments. This video describes it well: [
]

[NOTE: I should state that I have no connection with the Gig Performer company other than being a very happy user!]

Anyway - the other day my eye caught my BK7m sitting there doing nothing and I wondered how far I could push Gig Performer into interacting with it - and I thus started to create a small GP 'rack'.

This is the only reason for my question about INS files for styles- as there is a VST available which can be incorporated in Gig Performer which reads and uses INS files. I looked at the midi PC stuff and its clear that its not practical to make a styles INS file. It really is very early days - but so far after a couple of hours work I can change voices, volumes, balances and the like - and can feed the BK7m audio output back through Gig Performer and process the sound via a studio quality VST reverb (and easily control it). If this 'project' encourages me to start using my BK7m again then that has to be good. And it already has!

I will never solve the problem of the style volumes - although I still suspect there is a hidden (e.g. system exclusive) code which Roland haven't published. Its interesting that about a year ago you found out from Roland (for a forum user) - that there was a mistake in the system exclusive codes for (I think) a BK5. In which case I would be very interested in seeing those codes if you could let me see them please - as they might give me some clues.

Anyway - thanks again for the offer - I hope you find the above helpful.

Barry
3 months 2 weeks ago

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5528
BK7-EDITOR you help?

This browser does not support PDFs. Please download the PDF to view it: Download PDF

3 months 2 weeks ago
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 10), Roland Fantom XR, Yamaha Motif-Rack ES, Roland M-GS64, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16DX, Kawai MAV-8, JBL 4312E
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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5529
Have you heard of this BK editor? www.gesini.com/gerd-product.htm

I am a Mac user, so haven't tried it, but it seems he has solved the Style Part editor issue.

And yes, you are probably right, it's a sys-ex thing. When you think about it, normal CC codes are insufficient for an arranger, which can do 16 Parts (in SMF mode) and the four Keyboard Parts as well. MIDI can only address 16 channels at a time, so often address issues have to be solved with sys-ex.

Things used to be easier in Roland's earlier days, with more detailed control (and comprehensive documentation), but only because Roland arrangers were solidly based on existing Sound Canvas products which, being MIDI modules, were designed specifically for full external control. Nowadays, the whole module scene has largely disappeared (Roland's Integra7 being one of the last modules available... there's no FA series module, or Yamaha MODX module or anything much like that any more) and Roland's arrangers are based on a sound engine that really doesn't have a real module as its root. So integration for external control is not such a high priority.

In fairness, the percentage of arranger users that want or need to dive in that deep to their keyboard's sound engine hardly warrants the time and money Roland would need to spend to give us full external control and comprehensive documentation, and I suspect that the only reason we ever got it before was because our arrangers were based on products that already had that stuff, so the work was already done!

At the price point the BK-7m comes in at (compared with say a Korg PA4X) I'd say it's external control is pretty good, but things do tend to fall through the cracks. Roland's arranger presence has pretty much dried up (the E-A7 is really the only current Roland arranger, the BK series hasn't seen a refresh in four or five years) and nowadays, Roland tend to be concentrating on the synth and stage piano market a lot more. But this is really nothing new..! I'm old enough to remember the decline of the 'home organ' market, once a mighty powerhouse, now a tiny niche market. With the emphasis on synth music, EDM and hiphop in today's young consumers, the arranger simply isn't relevant to most younger (and more numerous) customers.

We are living through the twilight years of a once great instrument. It's sad, but all just 'the circle of life'!
3 months 2 weeks ago
BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5530
I believe this was the trick t controle the style parts (volume ect)

❍ Patch Part parameters
The BK-7m has 21 Parts: 5 parts assigned to the Keyboard, and 16 parts for Songs.
For Keyboard part control, use the address [50 xx xx]
For Song part control, use the address [40 xx xx]
3 months 2 weeks ago
BK7m,StudiologicSl880,edirolPCR-800,.....E-MU0404-usb,FA-08

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5531
see Bk7m midi Imp page 13

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Not shure but i believe you have to send the commands over the basic(system) channel 13 incl. the destination style part channel
(usb to Host or 5pinMidi-in are separate virtaly by default 50-XX-XX and 40-XX-XX to reach song/style parts and live parts)
It's quit confusing have 21 part in totale shared by two 16ch midi-in ports so there must be a virtula midi port merge Mapping this into song 16ch(midi-A + 5 partsMidi B ) or into arranger mode 12 styleparts and 4 live parts in on MIDI-A/B.

this virtula port also maps the 5pin midi-in chn into 4xduplicate to the system 4 live part channels

are you still with me ??? I'm lost
3 months 2 weeks ago Last edit: 3 months 2 weeks ago by Ronald#Roland.
BK7m,StudiologicSl880,edirolPCR-800,.....E-MU0404-usb,FA-08
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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5535
[Weird another problem replying: - I logged in, 'quick replied to message', submitted it and it did not get submitted]
Dear All,

Many thanks for the helpful replies...so to answer them:-

1) I tried the Gesini demo some time ago and had massive problems getting it to install - with errors all over the place (remember I worked in IT for 35 years - so not lacking the required skills!) - and then when it did finally install I had problems getting the demo to work. Unfortunately communicating with the developer was more frustrating than "shovelling jelly uphill with a pitch fork" - as it seemed to take ages to get a response. But things move on - so perhaps it may be time to try it again.

2) The Gesini guy did helpfully sort of answer my question about controlling style volume. He said that they could not (at the time of email - so may have changed) control the style volume directly because the required midi codes are not there - but he did have a workaround. What he said was :-

"The problem you mentioned with the style control can be solved if you set all style channels to "Local Off" and "Tx On" and the song parts to "RX ON". Then you can send thte MIDI messages related to the style channels to GERD and GERD can manipulate them and send them back to the BK. So you can control all style channels. This is not perfect - but a workaround. "

I couldn't actually quite see what he was getting at (I had also lost the will to live by that point!) - but the comment from a post above about page 13 in the midi spec throws more light on it. So because I am "a very sad person" (this may not translate well as in England this means somebody who is "pathetic") - I might have to try and get this working just because "I need to know!". [For our transatlantic cousins remember: "The English and the Americans are 2 people divided by a common language!"]

2) Diki - I am well old enough to remember the world of organs and, indeed, this morning by chance came across a photo of me at an organ festival event in the UK (around 1993) with about 1000 home organists attending a weeks holiday overdosing on home organs. That festival event is actually still running - but their last ever event is this spring due to lack of interest. I feel its a pity the home organ world has dispapeared as its a nice hobby - but was killed in the UK by the Tyros and Korg Pa series and Yamaha (in particular) ceasing to import organs into the UK - even though they are still made and sold in the far east. All the youngsters want to do is play with their stupid phones - so they are not even interested, and that is a serious problem. And I came across another nail in the coffin when last week I discovered that Lowrey organs ceased production at the end of 2018 (Lowrery organs are great - but I am not actually a fan of that sound) . Luckily for me, though, I love synthesizers (Vangelis, Enya started it for me) - so still get excited by those instruments .

Anyway - thanks again to you all for your help.
Barry
3 months 2 weeks ago

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5536
BJGee writes:
"All the youngsters want to do is play with their stupid phones - so they are not even interested, and that is a serious problem. "
In our country, the same problem
3 months 2 weeks ago Last edit: 3 months 2 weeks ago by loshk.
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 10), Roland Fantom XR, Yamaha Motif-Rack ES, Roland M-GS64, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16DX, Kawai MAV-8, JBL 4312E

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5540
In fairness, you can do some quite amazing things with a smartphone or tablet/iPad. There have always been dilettantes and there have always been people of genuine talent, and the tool used doesn't change that much. I can remember some real cringeworthy home organ performers too! Not to mention some quite snooty remarks about home organs from the Jimmy Smith/BookerT Hammond crowd!

Bottom line, if the GERD guy could get at the Style Parts, it was through MIDI, there is absolutely no other way to communicate with the OS. If he could, you can!
3 months 1 week ago
BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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BK7m (or other BK) Sonar INS file for styles #5561
Hi BJGee ,
What plugin do you use to read .ins files and how well does it work?
Do you have any settings for BK7m/Gig Performer that you could share here?
Thanks
3 months 1 week ago

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