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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines

3 months 2 days ago
boozekey
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #162
Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum, I've read some post in the past few years on the old one.... good stuff ;)
I have since some time a BK-9 and I've always used as a very principiant as I am...
Now I've the time to work it up a little more and I'm preparing some sound preset lists to play live with the band.
I've had some 'sound issue' (i believe) when I use some effects as 'AutoPan' in order to get that 'Left/Right' sound: I can't hear it from the output lines. I have a similar issue with Chorus/vibrato/distorsion variations when using H.bar.
Stranger thing is that I can hear all of that from the headphones out; even if I use the two outputs into a USB Audio card, I can't hear these effects during recording, but after that is audible from the file (!!!!)
From the keyboard I have two Mono Jacks going in two line in (center panned, but i've tried left/right too).
Firmware 1.06

Sorry for bad English (principiant on that too :D)

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3 months 2 days ago
Diki
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #163
You don't mention what soundcard/DAW/OS you use...

This is definitely an issue with how you have those configured, because the stereo effects on a BK9 work perfectly. You are 'monitoring' in mono, despite recording in stereo.

I would suggest a visit to the forum of the soundcard/DAW you use.

I play a few venues that have only mono PA's, and I often have to deal with some sounds sounding VERY different in mono than they do in glorious stereo!

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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3 months 1 day ago
boozekey
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #164
Hi Diki, thanks for your reply. Actually the test with the Audio card was just a 'side' test. What I really need is to figure out how these effects don't come out from the monitors (i believe that's 'monitoring' you've mentioned).
I've just realized that I didn't mentioned the actual setup I'm messing with :silly:
The 2 outputs (mono L/R) go in two separated lines in to the Mixer (Hallen&Heat ZED-10 ); two active monitors from the mixer.
I've tried both center-panned and L/R-panned
That's the main Issue, for the moment

PS: Whats "venues" and "PA's"?

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3 months 1 day ago
Diki
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #165
Definitely you want to hard pan the two channels L&R (or even easier, use one of the stereo channels), but you may also be dealing with issues with the mixer sending the wrong busses to your speakers.

Re-read the mixer manual, you may have missed something! Make sure you are monitoring the main mix, not some monitor buss.

Bottom line, you can always doublecheck for yourself that it isn't the BK by putting your headphones into the headphone output of the BK and hearing the stereo there.

BTW 'Venue' is another word for a place (a restaurant, a concert hall, a bar, etc.), and PA means 'Public Address (system)', so the sound system you play through in public.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.
The following user(s) said Thank You boozekey

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3 months 1 day ago
boozekey
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #168
Ok Diki, tomorrow morning I'll try your way and let you know... Hopefully there's something in the Mixer manual.
Thanks for your explanations ;)

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2 months 3 weeks ago
Diki
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #178
Any success?

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 1 week ago
boozekey
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #231
Hi Diki, sorry for the big delay :D
After some test, I've found that the 'deepness' of the Autopan effect did the trick. I've 'upped' to the maximum value and I've take down the 'Chorus Send' and the 'Gain send' value from 50/60 to 10/10 and now the panning effect is really accentuated. I believe that the distance from the monitors is the major issue on the difference between them and the headphones.

Thank you very much for your help-

PS: do you have some sound setting advice for Natural Pianos/digital pianos/brass ensamble in order to hear them better? For example, I think it could be more 'voiced' on the upperpart of the Natural Piano

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2 months 1 week ago
Diki
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #233
So you at least sorted that you are hearing stereo now?

Panning effects are very much a result of how you (and your listeners) place their speakers and where you sit. While extreme panning can be cool if you are smack dab in the middle of a pair of well placed speakers, extreme hard panning can be a problem for people that are sitting close to one speaker or the other. In their case, they will barely hear the other side at all.

Unless going for an extreme effect, if you listen to most well produced music, you will hear panning effects brought a bit in from full-on hard left/right, to help them 'sit' in the mix.

The problem is that headphones always unnaturally exaggerate stereo separation, and give you an unnatural effect. Trying to recreate that on speakers isn't usually the solution. You will seldom hear anything so hard panned in pro recordings.

As to your question about pianos and brass, I'm not sure what you are after. I am pretty happy with the pianos (especially the SN Pianos, I rarely use any others). One thing I always advise is to always listen back AFTER you have played. Judging a sound while you are playing it is always a bit of a 'divided head' thing... Part of you is concentrating on playing, part on listening. The way to judge a sound is when 100% of your concentration is on just listening!

Then are you listening to a sound alone, or within a mix? If the intention is for it to be part of a mix, best to listen to it in that context. EQ is an interactive thing... the frequencies of one sound will interact with those from another sound, so a sound that sounds full and fat alone may often sound weak when in a full mix. And a sound with a lot of high frequencies may clash with hi-hats, cymbals, or other high pitched sounds.

There isn't really any one way to get it right, it's an experience thing. But it helps to always listen to sounds you want to use in context rather than soloed. And definitely, NEVER make mixing and EQ decisions while you are playing or performing, wait until you can let your ears rest and judge while listening alone.

Take piano's, for an example... Listen to a well recorded CD, then listen to a recording of yourself playing. The BIG mistake most players make is playing their sounds too loud compared to a CD. Naturally, we all want to hear ourselves well, but an arranger isn't like playing in a band. In a band, you have a monitor, which makes what YOU are playing a bit louder for you. But out front, the sound man has you turned down and part of the mix. You are back in balance.

But an arranger has no way to allow you to hear yourself louder without the audience hears it louder too! So we have to train our ears and our playing to sit 'inside' the mix more than we have before. there are times when a part you are playing is just part of the rhythm section. It should be no louder than the others, sometimes even quieter! This is quite a huge change from playing with a band...

But anyway, the main advice I'd give you about sounds is, always record yourself. All the time! Use a little pocket recorder, or the built-in audio recorder in the BK, and never decide about a sound until a) you hear it in the context of the whole mix, and b) not until you have it turned down to the point where it sits correctly in the mix, and doesn't sit 'on top' too much.

And compare your recordings to pro CD's (of the same style of music). It's amazing how often we THINK we need more highs, or a louder sound, but when compared to a CD we find it is other things that are important, and the sound we want doesn't need EQ to 'pop', but a better mix or arrangement.

The tone controls in the BK are fairly simple. 3 band EQ, alter the cutoff of the filter, change the velocity sensitivity. So picking the right sound in the first place is critical.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 1 week ago
boozekey
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #237
Thank you Diki, this is a very useful explanation. And yes, now I can hear the 'stereo thing' :)
I will take your advices in big consideration, since this is one of the proofs I needed to confirm what I've tought in time, playing alone or in gigs... There will be some work to do, that's sure, but I will try to record the bk-9 sound at home/reharsal/live in order to set best sound for me.
I have some more questions about the keyboard, like Audio-key related. Do you think it's better to open another topic?

Thank you again for your BIG help

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2 months 1 week ago 2 months 1 week ago by Diki.
Diki
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BK-9 Can't hear some sound effects on Output lines #238
Please open a new thread for totally new questions...

Recording yourself constantly is a fantastic way to get confirmation that the audience is hearing everything the way you want them to hear it. Sadly, of course, that means often making things so WE don't hear them exactly the way WE want to hear them! At least, while playing... :evil:

I have a little Zoom pocket recorder that I hook up to the headphones outputs (while my PA is connected to the main outs) and record myself several times a month, and always after I have learned and set up new tunes. This way, it is easy to catch errors in Part volumes, or decide on a different sound, effects levels, etc..

I do it first at home, then at least once on a gig. Why both? Well, we all tend to maybe put in a bit more energy if we have an audience, play a little harder, sing a little harder, etc.! It helps to have that 'live with a crowd' recording, to see if we are changing how we play from our home studio setup!

I came from a background of playing in live bands for 20+ years before I started playing with arrangers, and had gotten used to hearing myself 'on top' of the band because of my dedicated monitor speakers. Training myself to play 'within' the mix and not try to play 'on top' was probably the hardest thing for me to get used to..!

Without constantly recording myself and being vigilant about not playing too loud (because I still play with live bands every now and again), it is easy to slip back into old habits! I highly recommend having a little digital pocket recorder and recording yourself often. Better to catch bad habits while they aren't ingrained... :whistle:

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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