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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi?

2 months 3 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #119
Look guys. Take a read of this thread FROM THE BEGINNING. Then calm down. The OP wanted MIDI control of file loading. Can't be done. Has never been done. Probably never will be done.

Take up your anger with Roland.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 3 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #120

cbee wrote: Diki, did you think I was basing my opinion on just this one thread and just this one forum. No, that is not the case. I stand by what I have written. Admitted, you have driven me away. I will never post on this forum again. I might be tempted to reply, but not post and I’m not going anywhere, so the Bon voyage is a little premature, it was just wishful thinking on your part. I will still be watching as you continue to find fault with others, especially those whose native language is not English and cannot defend themselves so easily. To say that you are self obsessed or self absorbed if you prefer, is only an insult if it is untrue. I believe it to be true. It was not and is not my intention to insult you. The reason you feel insulted is that you cannot accept any arguement that does not coincide with your own views. Having said that, I’m pleased that you are not going to delete this post. It shows that you are prepared at least to debate. What I’ve said about moderators and owners deleting posts is quite true as you well know. I’ve even seen moderators altering their own posts just so that they are seen in a better light. You know this sort of thing goes on. However, I have also said you are helpful. If you would just tone down your criticism of others when they don’t agree with you, then you would be a better moderator. Is there any chance of that? Time will tell.


LOL... Tell you what. You go off and moderate a forum for ten years, then ask yourself what you would think of someone that said any of that to you. That is, if you COULD be 'helpful' instead of just asking questions. I have my doubts. :evil:

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 3 weeks ago
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #125

cbee wrote: Diki, did you think I was basing my opinion on just this one thread and just this one forum. No, that is not the case. I stand by what I have written. Admitted, you have driven me away. I will never post on this forum again. I might be tempted to reply, but not post and I’m not going anywhere, so the Bon voyage is a little premature, it was just wishful thinking on your part. I will still be watching as you continue to find fault with others, especially those whose native language is not English and cannot defend themselves so easily. To say that you are self obsessed or self absorbed if you prefer, is only an insult if it is untrue. I believe it to be true. It was not and is not my intention to insult you. The reason you feel insulted is that you cannot accept any arguement that does not coincide with your own views. Having said that, I’m pleased that you are not going to delete this post. It shows that you are prepared at least to debate. What I’ve said about moderators and owners deleting posts is quite true as you well know. I’ve even seen moderators altering their own posts just so that they are seen in a better light. You know this sort of thing goes on. However, I have also said you are helpful. If you would just tone down your criticism of others when they don’t agree with you, then you would be a better moderator. Is there any chance of that? Time will tell.


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2 months 2 weeks ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #126
Mr. Admin,

I asked this question, and basically got told by your moderator in so many words that I was a stupid fool for what I wanted to do (complex engineering work BTW). Another user chimed in, and pointed out this clandestine abuse is prevalent in other similar post in the old forum. There was no disagreement or difference of opinion here. Your moderator started this entire situation. A long time ago I taught a forum moderator a valuable lesson... learn to spot the source of the problems: People who know exactly how to phrase things to start the shitting contest, using cleverly camouflaged words that seem benign... Instead of being fooled into blaming and punishing their victims.

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2 months 2 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #127
No, you didn't get told that. You CHOSE to read it that way. All I did was point out that no, Roland (nor any other keyboard manufacturer) do not allow MIDI control of the file system, and to point out that there are workarounds and alternatives, and to question whether the need for access to more than 999 entries was a practical need or just a theoretical one.

That you chose to respond to my help in such an immature way says volumes about you, not me, I'm afraid. You failed to research your need, and incorrectly assumed it was a common feature. It isn't. In fact, I honestly do not know of a single keyboard that DOES allow MIDI remote manipulation of the entire file system. Perhaps you can enlighten me if you know of one...

My job here is to help where I can, and offer suggestions and advice for alternatives when exactly what we want to achieve cannot be done. I'm sorry you failed to take it in that context.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 2 weeks ago 2 months 2 weeks ago by Willem52.
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #129
Please guys, can't we take just a cold beverage instead?

[ genius.com/G-love-and-special-sauce-cold-beverage-lyrics ]

Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820 and EMU Xboard61.

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2 months 2 weeks ago 2 months 2 weeks ago by John.
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #130
Diki, I asked a simple question, and you answered in a very condescending and judgmental way. Maybe you don't think so, but you did. For example, I've got 400 hours invested in a software application that I wanted to write, and someone on the other side of my monitor, who should be supportive to any member of the community, is telling me in a very condescending way that I should have used Band In A Box. Don't you think that if BIAB was what I wanted, that I would be using it? I like nothing about that program, the least of which is how it sounds. I called you out on on your "remarks", and so did another member who has, apparently seen it more than once. If one other member did, then there are probably others who wanted to speak up, but just chose to stay out of it.

You're supposed to be a moderator here. At what point do you realize that your help is cruciial, but your criticism, judgement and very cleverly disguised condescending and inflammatory comments are not?

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2 months 2 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #131
Read into it what you want. It wasn't written that way. I feel that someone that can't accept that they have made a mistake expecting a feature that no keyboard ever has had is probably quite likely to find some excuse for it. Embarrassment, pride, who knows? You certainly haven't made ONE single reference to how you made this false assumption (that MIDI control of file systems is common) or to thank me for telling you so you didn't spend more time tilting at windmills.

But the fact that I very quickly realized your mistake, and equally quickly suggested workarounds (that aren't really hard to come up with, once you accept the basic mistake in your assumptions) must have hit a sore spot, given this completely over the top response.

You have some kind of nerve demanding answers, then taking umbrage at the perceived tone of them. I can only shudder to think of your response were someone to take offense not only of what you may have told them when they made a fundamental mistake, but then berated you for their erroneous 'impression' of your tone about it. Fortunately, it seems unlikely anyone ever will, as uninformed as you appear to be.

I gave you your answer, I made workable suggestions how to work around the issue. The rest, my thin skinned friend, is on you. Maybe, next time you come here asking questions I should take time out of my day to answer for you, please supply a form detailing the exact language and tone you would like the answers in.

Or just go somewhere else and ask.

Bon voyage.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 2 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #132
First fact you have missed... BIAB has a MIDI out, and can drive your BK (so there goes the 'I don't like how it sounds' assumption). Secondly, you can make BIAB styles from MIDI derived from BK styles, so if you like the BK styles, you can port them to BIAB.

BIAB (or other software arranger type programs) has no need for external MIDI control of the file system. You want thousands of chord charts ready to go? There's your answer.

Personally, I am not sure (if the need for thousands of tunes instantly ready to go is a REAL need and not just something you've fixated on), but before i spent 400 hours writing a piece of software to do something, I'd have checked about the 999 entry Performance List problem FIRST. But hey, feel free to spend your time how you wish!

TBH, from your entire tone here, I am not sure you need to ask questions here. You seem to know everything, up to and including what other people are thinking. What use could you have for us?

BTW, you might notice cbee didn't help you in the slightest. You might also note that his reply got him a reprimand for language from the Admin. Not exactly the person you want in your 'corner', is that? But feel free to ask him for help in the future. At least his 'tone', even if not correct or helpful will keep you calm! I'm done trying to placate you. Start your own forum, then see how well you tolerate those unwilling to accept your help in the form YOU wish to deliver it in.

I will be sure to visit... :evil:

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 2 weeks ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #133
Please tell me, Mr. Know-It-All, how playing the BK with BIAB fixes the problem of and balance and mixing with those second-rate styles? My program imports BIAB songs, so have thousands of songs to use right away, and I have a workaround for multiple performance lists. It "got him" a reprimand makes my point. You're a "moderator" that is inflammatory and condescending. You're making a complete ass of yourself.

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2 months 2 weeks ago 2 months 2 weeks ago by admin.
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #134
GENTLEMENT.....! STOP THIS NOW! We have spent quite a bunch of time and money for almost 15 years to built and support a user club community, where the users are known for behaving with respect and netiquette. As admin I DO NOT ACCEPT that ANYONE uses MY PLATFORM being patronizing, condescending or sarcastic. Negative vibes do not foster a fruitful environment for learning, building trust and friendship. I KINDLY ask you to respect that you visit MY “HOUSE” and behave yourself, while you are here. If you for some strange reason insist on being rude at someone DO TAKE THIS elsewhere, NOT IN MY HOUSE! Thank you. Let’s continue the GREAT conversations that we are used to have. Remember.... When you disagree with someone in real life, true gentlemen will shake hands instead of escalating their disagreements. I hope that you are capable of doing that here as well... the ball is yours...

You make a living by what you get. You make a life by what you give.

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2 months 2 weeks ago 2 months 2 weeks ago by Diki.
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #135
Thank you, Søren...

Perhaps John would like to detail his workaround for the Performance List issue?

BTW, have you looked into vArranger? Another all software solution to playing Roland (and other manufacturers') styles entirely in a computer (with MIDI out to your BK or anything else you feel like).

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 2 weeks ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #137
Yes I have looked at VArranger. Such programs (including BIAB) generally require a lot of mixing and tweaking to sound "right' because they use stock SoundFont files or virtual instruments for sound generation. In the case of VArranger, the style files are "borrowed" and reverse engineered, so they are probably not rendered the same (and therefore never generate the same notes) as the original equipment. I went with an hardware arranger because I wanted something with a lot of styles that sounded right without all that tweaking. I know that many of the "extra" styles require tweaking to get the most out of them, but the stock ones do not, therefore the tweaking is by choice. The reason I went with the Bk is because Yamaha does not make a similar product (arranger sans keyboard), and the Audya was too expensive and didn't have as many styles as the Bk. Yamaha has much more online support, forums and user-created software, and was my first choice.

And you're missing the point. Designing and writing a software program is both technical and creative, and and I planned to do it from the start. I have specific design goals in mind, tools I want to write such as a songwriting tool. It is challenging, and a learning experience, and I have been having a lot of fun.

How did I work around it? I wanted my program to organize styles so that the user could seamlessly play songs using any internal or external style. I did not want to limit the number of available external styles in my program to 999. Since you can't change performance lists via MIDI, I modified my program to be able to load multiple style database files, each one corresponds to the performance list the user has loaded into the Bk. I also added a tool in my program to read a style directory on the user's USB stick and create the style databases for my program and a performance lists for the BK.

Perhaps you might have suggested as much when I asked the question originally?

John:

"Oh too bad. The player software I'm writing lets you change to an "external" style on the USB drive (by loading a performance via midi)... I could have more than the 999 external styles available without touching the player If I could load an arbitrary performance list through midi. Too bad they stopped updating this, this functionality could be easily added."

Diki:

"Hi John,It's great that you're writing some software that will make the Bk more accessible to acoustic instrument players. There has been a lot of people over the years that could have used something like this. Unfortunately you can't change the performance lists via MIDI. I can see how that might be useful for some people who might want to fully automate their performances and control them with a separate controller, but I think they're pretty much done updating the firmware for this device. Hey, maybe you can make your program load different style databases that corresponds the the performance list the user has loaded into the BK? That might not be as versatile as you want, but it will be a decent compromise."

That's what I would have done, but that's just me.

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2 months 1 week ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #141
You haven't got vArranger's workflow right. Just because at default it addresses some wanky internal soundfont doesn't mean that, with a few simple clicks, you can't set it up to send to your MIDI interface instead.

vArranger doesn't play 'translations' of styles. It plays them in their native format. In other words, if you load a Roland style and play it into a Roland module, the style sounds EXACTLY the same as if the style were playing in the arranger itself.

Obviously, play Yamaha styles or Ketron, Korg etc. into that Roland module, you will have exactly the same editing chores to do than if you received those styles already translated (but unedited) using EMC software or some other form of style translation.

But if you are judging vArranger or BIAB based on listening to it play soundfonts alone, you haven't really heard it at its best...

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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2 months 1 week ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #142
You do realize that you're talking to an software engineer here, correct? What do you mean VArranger plays styles in their native format?

The authors of any third-party arranger programs out there began by reverse engineering the style format(s), then approximating the rendering algorithm. If you want to use a style format from an arranger keyboard in a PC program, the style file format must be reverse engineered, because no arranger company publishes a specification for their style file formats. Reverse engineering a file format means pouring through reams and reams of numerical data in a hex editor, looking for patterns, and trying to figure out what the numbers mean. It is a very, very time consuming, laborious process. Once the style file format is cracked, the the developer can then write an algorithm to use the data in the style file to create the musical performance.

There are no specifications for the style files, or how to interpret the information contained in the style files. So all third party applications that use arranger style files are built on best guesses and approximations. Unless someone got their hands on a style specification and the rendering algorithm from the arranger company, the third party software simply ain't playing the same notes as the hardware. I do give the VArranger guy credit for being able to crack all these style formats, and getting pretty close.

Then, after you get your software working, there is the problem with the mix. It doesn't matter if you use soundfonts or send your MIDI data to a sound card, or to a keyboard, the mix will be wrong. This is why Roland styles sound different and need tweaking when you play them on a different machine, and why converted styles most often sound like crap. Styles are often meant for a particular machine, which has it's own "sound", and playing the style on another will not sound as good as the original hardware.

BIAB has inferior styles, I own it, It sounds like a PC playing music.

If you need me to go into more detail on how these programs actually work, I'm happy to. But, I don't need or want any of these arranger programs.

What I want is to play my Bk with the software program I wrote, which is exactly what I did.

I plan to release BkPlayer to the community sometime this summer, so that other Acoustic musicians may enjoy using a hardware arranger. .

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