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TOPIC: BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes

BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 10 Oct 2017 19:32 #6306

  • Attila
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I record an entire song (from a Performance Memory) with the auto accompaniment plus the right hand playing the Solo into a MIDI file, by pressing the REC SONG + Sync Start ON.

When I play back the SMF the Reverb, Volume parameters for the Tone Parts are totally different from the ones that I adjusted in the Performance Memory before recording..

Example: Up1 has a Reverb set to 90 in Performance Memory, after recording with the auto accompaniment it changes to 40 as I viewed the track with the Micro Edit. Volume also jumps from 55 to 100...

However, if I don't use the auto accompaniment, only the Up1 , Up2, LWR (didn't try MB), Reverb and Volume stays the same, no change...

I wonder what is that it could throw off my parameters after recording with the auto accomp. ?
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2017 19:34 by Attila.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 10 Oct 2017 23:20 #6309

  • Diki
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I'd have a REALLY careful read of the MIDI section of the manual... ;)

What I think you have done is set the MIDI parameters for 'SONG' rather than for 'Key/Rhythm'. Pay particular attention to the explanations in the 'Loading a MIDI Set' section.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 10 Oct 2017 23:49 #6310

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That was the first thing I checked, the Key/Rhythm is where it's supposed to be, I even created a USer 1 , 2, 3 >>> Midi sets, so I won't mess with the original, but something , somewhere was adjusted.

On your BK-9, you should be able to record the Volume, Reverb parameters, right? I just want to make sure I'm not hunting something that was never there before, would you please check this for me?
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 11 Oct 2017 00:19 #6311

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I reset the BK-9 to factory settings, it still won't record the Reverb parameter, nor the Volume, it makes, UP1 and Up2 Reverb to 40, Volume 100 for UP1, Up2....

This makes no sense...
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 11 Oct 2017 01:03 #6312

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Chorus doesn't change, playing back the recorded MIDI file, only the Reverb for UP1 and Up2 goes to 40... and Volume evens out on all the real parts at 100...

At this point I think this is how it was before... Let me know if yours is acting differently.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 11 Oct 2017 16:31 #6313

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Ok, so I read the MIDI part in the manual again :sick: , from A to Z, but I couldn't find anything that would explain this phenomenon.

I looked at all the TX for the Tone Parts they are all ON. :woohoo: I even Factory Reset-ed the keyboard, put the MIDI to KEY/Rhythm, and I tried recording, and again the same thing. UP1 Up2 goes to 40, Volume on all parts evens out at 100, Chorus is left alone.

The above mentioned happens when you select the Performance, press Sync Start, than press the REC Song button (it blinks), left hand holds down a chord , it starts recording , than stop the song, SAVE it, Re-Play it, than UP1, UP 2 jumps to a 40 under Reverb, Volume to 100 on all the parts.

HOWEVER !!!! :silly:

Here is what I noticed, If I select the Performance (like before), press REC/Song (TWICE so the red light is Continuous) , and you press START (a chord is already in the memory), it starts recording, and when I replay the song, my REVERB, VOLUME, CHORUS, EVERYTHING IS THE SAME.

Also if I switch to a different, a second Performance Memory, after the Recording was started with prior Performance Memory, the second Performance Memorie's settings will be recorded normally.

So at this point it seems that only the very first Performance Memory's settings are not recorded (if you use SYNC/Start), for some reason they are set to UP1, UP2 to Reverb 40, Volume 100. Everything else works as it should.

I would be very surprised if you would get different results with the above mentioned . If you have some time, please try it and let me know Diki.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 11 Oct 2017 23:58 #6318

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I have recorded myself to MIDI playing styles many times. I have not had this issue. It always sounded exactly the same. On the other hand, to be honest, I don't think I ever simply called up a Perf. and tried to record without at least playing something first! Maybe you are different, but I tend to like to get warmed up a bit before the red light goes on!

Can you try to detail what you may have done in the past to alter the ROM setups? Do you use a computer? Have you ever altered anything to accommodate that?

Or do you have SMF Quick Start enabled (although I rather doubt that applies here)?

When I get my keyboard back to the house, I will investigate.

It appears you and I both have found a decent workaround, so it's not really a heavy issue, is it? (if it really IS an issue)
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 13 Oct 2017 00:10 #6321

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No, I didn't touch the ROM set-ups, but I do use a computer laptop. I have Windows 7 with Cakewalk on it. I did the following two scenarios.


FIRST SCENARIO:
Recording from BK-9 to Computer Cakewalk. I wanted to record Up1, Up2, LWR all in one shot, to Cakewalk. That worked fine. Created a USER SET, turned Local OFF for the Tone Parts, left the TX ON, it was no issues.

SECOND SCENARIO:
I wanted to record the other way from Cakewalk to Bk-9 internal Sequencer. I loaded Cakewalk with a MIDI background created by BK-9. Called up the Performance MEMORY on BK_9.

Created another USER set. This time I turned OFF all the Locals in the Rhythm section for ADrum, ABass, ACC1 to 6. The reason I did this so when I start with SYNC/Start, Cakewalk won't make the Style to play or sound out, all you see is the light blinking. Otherwise I would have the drum+style play along the MIDI that's coming from Computer.

In order for Cakewalk not to mess up my Performance Memory set PARTS, I turned off the RX for UP1, Up2 and LWR, in the MIDI Tone Parts.

In Cakewalk I checked the MMC, >>>> pressed Sync/Start (Bk9) >> pressed Rec/Song (was only blinking BK9) >> clicked PLAY on Cakewalk ( it said waiting for MIDI clock signal) >>> pressed START (on BK-9) and Song started playing, while BK-9 was recording, along with me Playing the First Perf. Memory, than I switched to a second Performance Memory.

And it did record the whole thing as a MIDI file. I replayed the recorded MIDI file, and the VOLUME and Reverb was not called up for the First Performance Memory, only the Second Performance Memory 's Volumes and Reverbs were called up. (later in the Song, of course)

So I went into the BK_9's 16 track sequencer, called up Micro Edit for channel 4 ( UP1).
:woohoo: :woohoo: Believe it or not the VOLUME and Reverb values were there with the same values like the First Performance Memory had.

I said OK, let me type in a different value, I put for Volume >> 101, I did the same thing for the REVERB, SAVED the Song, went back, opened Mixer and replayed the Song. Guess what? :woohoo: it finally set the Volume to 101 and REVERB to the same values like the First Performance MEMORY had saved for UP1 (ch4).

I just don't get it, if BK9 records the MIDI CODE, why is it not reading it, and only after I Re-edit it, doesn't make much sense.

But at least it's not setting a different value like when I was only recording with the BK-9 ONLY ( no Computer involved ), In that scenario it was setting the VOLUME to 100 an all parts., REVERB to 40 on UP1, UP2; however CHORUS stayed the same.

Also do you think it's acceptable that the recording might be off 7 ticks here and there? I expected to be right on the money since it was started with SYNC/Start.

I'm very curious if your machine does the same thing (recording without computer) just PM, Sync/Start + Song/REC, than when you replay watch the MiXER if the VOLUME and REVERB changes.

Let me know if I was clear, if not I'll try again.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 13 Oct 2017 08:10 #6322

  • Diki
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Can't really help much. I don't use Cakewalk or Windows.

TBH, I have ALWAYS used the on-board sequencers (if they had one) for initial style 'capture'. The dirty little secret no-one talks about (well, not since the 80's!) is timing jitter and MIDI 'slop'. Because of the serial nature of MIDI (all messages one after another) and also the lack of integration into the OS (last computer with REALLY tight MIDI timing was the Atari ST, LOL), and also since Steinberg and a couple of other forward looking manufacturers ceased trying to make MIDI interfaces that pre-buffer and squirt out the MIDI locked more tightly to timecode (still have an old Midex3, that with the old Cubase drivers and Cubase integration still had fairly tight timing), sadly, hardware MIDI has gone backwards as far as timing goes.

BTW, you don't detail your MIDI interface or whether you are using MIDI over USB (drivers matter, here)...

But, in general, if you compare an SMF of an internal 'capture' compared to a capture over MIDI, you see FAR more 'on time' (events that are supposed to be on 1.1.001 actually being on 1.1.001!) on the internal capture than over MIDI.

A full style+keyboard Parts MIDI stream is a LOT of data, including sys-ex, trying to squeeze down one badly designed 80's data pipe! It is a lot for a serial interface to deal with!

And part of the problem is that so many people have gone to VSTi's, which don't get squeezed down ANY pipe, and are sample accurate, so there is little incentive on the industry to fix it, or write expensive low-level drivers for the MIDI interfaces (that require constant updates as OS's change).

But don't panic if you see little timing fluctuations in the List Edit... not until you can actually HEAR them! If you can't, relax! If you can, then there are some workarounds...

First is, record the backing FIRST. Don't try to add all YOUR playing on top of it.

Still hear a little slop (some of us are pretty sensitive to 'groove'!)?

If you can get the computer to sync to the arranger or vice-versa (it is preferable to have the computer sync to the arranger, if it can, so if you do a ritardando or accelerando,, it still keeps the events inside the bar properly - you may have trouble getting the computer to record what the tempo changes were, and may have to note later what the new tempo is, and how many beats/bars it takes to get there, and recreate the tempo map in the DAW), try recording only a few Parts at a time. It helps to use the Chord sequencer here, so that the input is consistent from take to take (although you will have to hand trigger the Divisions each time). The alternative is record the initial chord sequence into the computer and route that track to the NTA channel. That way you can add the Division commands (the manual has them somewhere) to the trigger sequence.

You get this down, if you want the tightest possible timing, record each style Part individually!

But, to clarify, while you are having your problem in the OP, you aren't connected to the computer at all?
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 13 Oct 2017 08:20 #6323

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BTW, take a look at the first bar of any capture in a DAW list edit, and marvel at how much sys-ex is getting sent! You want an explanation why the timing might be off a hair in the first bar, there's your answer.

The deal is, sys-ex 'strings' MUST be sent all at once (not the whole package, but at least each full message). With longer packages, not even MIDI timing data, let alone notes or controllers can be sent..! That initial burst of sys-ex (it is primarily all the Makeup Tools and effects parameters) really messes with timing if the style is really busy in the first few beats (and even more if you are sending it to a computer).

Try using Intro1 FIRST (and then go to the Intro you really want afterwards), and that will thin out any timing, plus send most of the sys-ex out before the style even starts (where you want it to start!)....
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 14 Oct 2017 03:54 #6327

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" Can't really help much. I don't use Cakewalk or Windows. "
:woohoo: Well why not? :P it's by Roland :) the one that I'm using...

"BTW, you don't detail your MIDI interface or whether you are using MIDI over USB (drivers matter, here)..."
I use a USB cable between BK-9 and PC (like the printers have, I don't use the MIDI IN/OUT)


"But, to clarify, while you are having your problem in the OP, you aren't connected to the computer at all? "
With connection to computer and without connection there seems to be a problem, not a big one but still...

1. With connection to Computer the Performance Memory's Data is recorded by not played back unless edited.

2. With No connection to Computer using only the BK-9, recorded Data from PM is over written (for UP1, UP2 is set to 40 (reverb) , all parts Volume set to 100.) Second PM down the road is recorded with the right values.

I hear what you are saying about the MIDI DATA being off here and there, and it makes sense that it throws off things couple of ticks, poor BK-9 gets its own MIDI Codes back in the first couple of measures from the PC, I noticed that it's a lot of DATA, maybe I'm going to insert couple of measures after the System Exclusive messages...

Anyway I'm pretty happy, I accomplished something that's going to make my life a little easier, even if I have to tweak it here and there. I can record Background midi and Solo and still get MIDI (not Wave) and I can edit if I make couple of mistakes ... :woohoo: :silly:

But I'm still curious if you were able to do what I requested? see if you get 40 for REVERB.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 14 Oct 2017 16:14 #6330

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I have a Mac, so Cakewalk and Windows are right out! Lately I've been using Reaper...

And sadly (not!) my gig schedule has been busy enough I rarely have the arranger set up at home. I'll test this as soon as I can.

I always used to have problems with SMF's that the count-in click starts immediately on bar 1.1.001, exactly because of that sys-ex burst at the beginning, so yes, I always make a point to edit in an extra bar of silence (even just a bar of 1/4 will do) and cut and paste all the sys-ex data to the new 'one'. Solves the problem completely.
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BK-9 after MIDI Recording "Reverb" param. changes 17 Oct 2017 01:43 #6341

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It sounds like your midi data for volume and effects is sending before your recorded data begins.. Can you add a measure in front or resend the performance again after recording has started...This way you won't record the default setting.
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