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TOPIC: Yamaha Genos

Yamaha Genos 02 Oct 2017 15:20 #6290

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The official announcement was made. Great new Revo drums and overall sound. Meanwhile, Roland appears to be slipping further and further behind both Yamaha and Korg in the arranger wars. :(
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 09:15 #6291

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I would replace the ugly word "war" here with "world" or "scene".
Much nicer i.m.h.o. The world is mad enough these days.
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
Last Edit: 03 Oct 2017 09:16 by Willem52.
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 21:20 #6292

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The war is over! I’m not sure if any of you guys have noticed, but there hasn’t been a Roland TOTL arranger since the G 70/E80

However, if you would like to compare models with a similar price ( I know, what a concept! ) perhaps you would like to take a look at any Yamaha or Korg model at about the same price as an EA7.. At this price point, TBH, the EA7 compares quite favorably.

But if your focus is on the $3500 and up market, then yes, obviously, Roland is out of the game. Do you want to play that game? Obviously, Roland do not..!. And, in all fairness, given the emphasis on synths and soft instruments these days, perhaps they made the right decision.

As I have said many times, until Roland show us that they can make a down market arranger without screwing up, perhaps it is just as well they are not screwing up in the more expensive market as well ..!

Maybe, once they start to release down market arrangers with some actual content for the features they provide ( you know I am talking about the EA7’s sampler and multi-pads!) it will be time for them to revisit the high-end market.

Until then ...
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 21:43 #6293

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Diki wrote:
The war is over! I’m not sure if any of you guys have noticed, but there hasn’t been a Roland TOTL arranger since the G 70/E80

However, if you would like to compare models with a similar price ( I know, what a concept! ) perhaps you would like to take a look at any Yamaha or Korg model at about the same price as an EA7.. At this price point, TBH, the EA7 compares quite favorably.

But if your focus is on the $3500 and up market, then yes, obviously, Roland is out of the game. Do you want to play that game? Obviously, Roland do not..!. And, in all fairness, given the emphasis on synths and soft instruments these days, perhaps they made the right decision.

As I have said many times, until Roland show us that they can make a down market arranger without screwing up, perhaps it is just as well they are not screwing up in the more expensive market as well ..!

Maybe, once they start to release down market arrangers with some actual content for the features they provide ( you know I am talking about the EA7’s sampler and multi-pads!) it will be time for them to revisit the high-end market.

Until then ...

Diki, I agree with your comments, the war is over and Roland lost. I will be looking at the Yamaha 970/770 replacements in a couple years (I have an EA7).
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Yamaha Genos 04 Oct 2017 21:04 #6294

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I am wondering what you consider is the defining feature in the Yamaha S9xx series that would dictate a move away from the Roland EA7?

I have to admit, on a sheer visceral sound quality level, I still think Roland has the far more live and punchy sound. And the ability to add audio loops to the multi pads seems a lot better implemented in the Rolands. Not to mention the ease of having instant access to all your styles and sequences and MP3s from the USB stick rather than having to preload everything.

The grass may certainly look greener in the TOTL market segment, but in the mid price market, Roland still have a lot to offer.
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Yamaha Genos 04 Oct 2017 22:55 #6295

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billtracy wrote:
Diki wrote:
I am wondering what you consider is the defining feature in the Yamaha S9xx series that would dictate a move away from the Roland EA7?

I have to admit, on a sheer visceral sound quality level, I still think Roland has the far more live and punchy sound. And the ability to add audio loops to the multi pads seems a lot better implemented in the Rolands. Not to mention the ease of having instant access to all your styles and sequences and MP3s from the USB stick rather than having to preload everything.

The grass may certainly look greener in the TOTL market segment, but in the mid price market, Roland still have a lot to offer. .

Of course, I only said I will be looking not necessarily buying. It would depend how many features make it from the Genos to the MOTL. I like the new drums and the new interface. The Style Creator looks like it would be easy to get around on. But you are right, Roland still has some advantages, so I'll have to see where I'm at then.
Last Edit: 04 Oct 2017 22:58 by billtracy.
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Yamaha Genos 05 Oct 2017 22:16 #6296

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I'm not expecting much from the Genos, at $5500 will make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger (that's street price for both Genos and E-A7).

Are you? :evil:

Most of us forget how affordable and down-market the E-A7 is. Even an S970 is $2000 street. :woohoo:

You may well be able to afford the Genos, or maybe an S970, but how about we compare apples to apples, not Ferrari's to Camry's?!

You want to compare the E-A7 to a Yamaha, it MUST be to the S770. And, you might also look at how long T5 technology took to get trickled down to the S series... Here's a hint: IT HASN'T! We are barely seeing T4 technology in the S series. So you might be holding your breath for a long time for Genos exclusive technology to make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger. :dry:
Last Edit: 05 Oct 2017 22:24 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 05 Oct 2017 22:44 #6297

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Diki wrote:
I'm not expecting much from the Genos, at $5500 will make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger (that's street price for both Genos and E-A7).

Are you? :evil:

Most of us forget how affordable and down-market the E-A7 is. Even an S970 is $2000 street. :woohoo:

You may well be able to afford the Genos, or maybe an S970, but how about we compare apples to apples, not Ferrari's to Camry's?!

You want to compare the E-A7 to a Yamaha, it MUST be to the S770. And, you might also look at how long T5 technology took to get trickled down to the S series... Here's a hint: IT HASN'T! We are barely seeing T4 technology in the S series. So you might be holding your breath for a long time for Genos exclusive technology to make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger. :dry:

Some of the major features would have to make it to the MOTL for me to consider it. Such as the Revo drums, the touchscreen and interface and the playlist feature. I compared the 770 to the E-A7 and obviously went with Roland mostly because I was familiar with Roland having owned a BK3 and because I prefer Roland's performance system. Since then I have taken a look at registrations and I see how they are more powerful albeit more complex. Hopefully, the playlist feature will make them easier to work with. But this is all speculation. After putting this much work into Roland I may stick with them.
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 05:34 #6299

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It is an interesting exercise to look at when Tyros models first used a particular technology (SA2, for instance) and then how many years passed before that technology made it first into the flagship S-series model, then finally down to the budget S-series. It's all well and good to dream, but the stark fact is, by the time anything from the Genos makes its way down to a $1300 Yamaha, you will be salivating over what the newest TOTL Yamaha has, and in all likelihood, Roland will have had a budget arranger out for a while that sounds as good!

In all fairness, Roland had a terrific functional touchscreen over a decade ago. It has taken Yamaha that long just to catch up with the G70! You might also note that, for a touchscreen to be affordable at the low end MOTL market, Roland had to go to a B&W screen. The touchscreen will be one of the most expensive components in the Genos, and the odds of it EVER getting into a budget arranger are slim to none! Roland certainly couldn't manage to make the BK-9 as affordable as it was, and as powerful as it was, and still include the touchscreen from the G70/E80! It's something of a trade-off.

The jury is still out on how well the Genos screen is implemented. Compare a PA4X screen to a G70 (nearly ten years its junior) and you realize that design and implementation is still critical (I am not personally a big fan of the PA4X screen, or layout). Plus, the PA3X screen was sluggish and difficult to reliably hit. A touch screen is only as good as its design and ergonomics. I have played almost every keyboard ever made with a touchscreen, and some are great, and some are dogs! I'd definitely wait on reliable user reports on how well the system is for live play....
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 16:23 #6300

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As I said, I'll see what the Yamaha MOTL really has and what any future Roland arrangers have and make a choice. By then, I will have 2 years or so work into the EA7 and abandoning that to trade brands would be a significant step as well. I've never had a touch screen so I have to be convinced, but the Yamaha interface looks nice. But if the Revo drums and other features don't make it to MOTL that would be a deal breaker.
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 22:37 #6301

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A sound plan...

As I have noted before, my replace and re-work timeline is a lot longer than most... I like to get close to 10 years on each new arranger before I need to totally re-do everything (after all, what's the point of an upgrade if you use legacy data and sounds, and end up sounding almost exactly the same?!), and I think there is a world of untapped potential in my BK-9 (I still don't yet extensively use Key Audio much, or integrate sequencing with audio clips, so there's a long way for me to up my game without changing arrangers), and at today's rather more glacial development pace of arrangers (even Korg and Yamaha are releasing new arrangers at a slower pace than back during the peak of their popularity, it isn't just Roland!) I think it will be that long before there is anything out at an affordable price that simply blows my BK-9 away (for the kind of music I do).

If I did a lot of EDM, yes, I think I'd be looking to upgrade (or, more realistically, move away from arrangers altogether!), but for the more legacy stuff I play (40's-80's American and UK pop, R&B, reggae, country etc.) I'm still pretty content with what I can get out of the BK-9.

Are there some things in the Genos I would dearly love? Hell yes! Am I willing to pay $5500 for them?

Hell no! :evil:
Last Edit: 07 Oct 2017 22:38 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 08 Oct 2017 12:53 #6302

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I did not like the sounds of Genos! They are all electronic, but the Roland is very close to natural sound (accordion, saxophone, guitar, etc.)
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Yamaha Genos 09 Oct 2017 23:29 #6305

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I agree with you Loshk,I take a good headphone to listen more carefull to the sound ,first impressoin i realy miss the low frequency power on it.But it's a video demo!
Yamaha sound It's a matter of personal tast. It doesn't say the yamaha sounds are bad. We here love the Roland sounds!
Yamaha had always a pretty dry-,clean sound and very hard on de edge's, make it sound (to perfect) digital as you say Electronic.

The whole concept of the GENOS it's perfect! I have to admit (so far we can see! it needs a bit more time to see the reality behavior).
The GENOS concept, It fulfill my wishlist of what i like to have on a TOTL arranger! expect from the price $5.500 arround $4.000 would be better!

I'm also a little disappointing on the factory style's SO old fashion traditional Basic keyboard-arranger player genre ala party schlager-festival ect..,but it should not be the problem to have/make your own style gerne.
I also found it a missed change to have only 4 multipads while on the right side there would be enough room for a 4X4 multipad area.

It's already a few years I suggest a crossover synht like FA(-07) with a BK/EA7 arranger function on top off it. Again a HINT TO ROLAND!!

AVIRO
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2017 00:03 by aviro.
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Yamaha Genos 10 Oct 2017 23:07 #6308

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About the only thing that has so far utterly blown me away in all the Genos demos is the pedal steel...

I still can't figure out how it is bending only the one note INSIDE the chord. Is it locating the second and bending it into a third? Is it depressing the third into a second until you release a pedal? Is it only working on the top or bottom note of a chord?

I have worked with other keyboards that could bend one note and not the others, but they have all relied on me lifting off the notes that should not bend (while I hold the sustain) and only bending the notes actually held. Unfortunately, an almost unworkable system for anything other than really slow lines! :S

But yes, the drums have got a LOT better, the round robin sample switching is one of those 'about time' features that may help move along the rest of the industry to adopt one of the things that has made VST drum libraries into the powerhouses they have become. Particularly when you think how robotically some of the old legacy styles were programmed, something that alternates samples at the exact same velocity level (or within a certain window, I'm not altogether clear how Yamaha have implemented this yet) can only help make a bunch of older styles come alive.

However, as in all things, a lot depends on the EASE of editing those older styles. For comparison, try editing a Korg style on a Korg, and a Roland on a Roland. I have done both. Roland is MASSIVELY easier, and despite that, more powerful. Certain functions on the Korg (raising or lowering Part velocities is one, something that is critical to being able to use multi-layer drum kits to their best, or any vel-layered sound, for that matter) needs to be done individually, on each Division of the Style, AND each Chord Variation of the style! :woohoo: An insane amount of work to do something that takes a couple of button presses on a Roland. B)

As I have always said, unless something is pretty easy to do, even if it CAN be done, it probably won't! I have yet to see the Genos's style and SMF editing capabilities, but the will have had to up their game considerably from the Tyros to get close to how easy things already are on the Roland's.

We don't have a lot to crow about these days, but editing ease is still one of them! And, when it comes to it, that is what makes the difference between not using an old style or sequence, and being able to edit it to be close to as good as the ROM styles. Also, given that probably 90% of the legacy SMF's out there adhere to Roland standards, I think Yamaha and Korg do themselves a disservice not concentrating on making it easier to nudge and adjust old sequences to best use their sounds and kits...
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2017 23:09 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 16:50 #6314

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Nice instrument, but I have to agree with some other folks, the sounds are muffled on the Yamaha Genos. It's not clear, the styles sound buzy. Maybe it's a user preference, but still for 5000 or so, I expected something that's going to make me drop my jaw to the floor :woohoo: , but that's not the case.

I am not saying it's a bad instrument, it's just my first impression. Plus a hands on test drive would make a difference too.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 16:54 #6315

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I think the sounds are great, especially the new drums which are among the best on any arranger IMO. If I remember right, Martin Harris stated they had made some of the styles less busy. $5000, well that's another conversation, but it is in line with their previous TOTL. Too much for me and my personal use though.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 17:02 #6316

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It's preference, like some people like dogs, others like cats... I like Rolands and their sounds, and I compare stuff with what I know, but of course a Yamaha guy or gal thinks differently, nothing wrong with that...

Although I wouldn't say "NO", if someone would be willing to buy it for me as a birthday present... :woohoo: :woohoo:
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 21:34 #6317

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I wouldn't either! But you're right, Roland has a great sound. I was listening to styles with everything shut off but drums and they sounded very good. I am using a combination of the stock Roland kits (with editing) and the Dynamix "Modern" drums.
Last Edit: 11 Oct 2017 21:35 by billtracy.
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Yamaha Genos 12 Oct 2017 00:05 #6319

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I CAN hear some improvement to the T5 sound in the Genos. The drums are definitely better...

But, in fairness, when a $1000 cheaper Korg or a $3000-3500 cheaper Roland can approach the drums of the Genos, I don't think Yamaha can really clap themselves on the back, yet. Other than that and a few other new sounds (I did like the C7 piano, but jury's out until I hear it played in less capable hands than Mr. Martin!) TBH, it's VERY much a continuation of the Tyros sound.

Which, if you loved it, you already have one, and if you didn't, you got a Korg or a Roland!

Which is why we are all here... :evil:
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Yamaha Genos 12 Oct 2017 00:10 #6320

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Also, yes... I believe some of us may be starting to realize that the 'sound' of an arranger depends VERY much on how and who programmed the styles.

Put Roland styles into a Yamaha, it can often sound punchier. Put Yamaha styles into a Korg and it often sags a bit. The guys who do the programming, and especially the selection team and QC team have a massive amount to do with how an arranger is 'voiced'.

Which leads me right back to... How easy are the style editing tools to use? If they are simple, you will make light work of massaging conversions to sound great.

If not... You probably won't bother! :dry:
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Yamaha Genos 15 Oct 2017 11:59 #6335

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This video explains the difference between GENOS and Tyros 5

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Yamaha Genos 16 Oct 2017 04:13 #6338

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All in all, a worthy upgrade. But hardly worth a name change, is it? :evil: Tyros 7 would have done nicely! Maybe 'TyrosX' could have acknowledged the touchscreen, with TyrosX2 etc. for future models. But Genos seems to imply something utterly new, which this video explains quite graphically how it isn't! :dry:

I am also hugely entertained at the 76 only form factor and touchscreen. After listening to Yamaha fanboys for YEARS say the non-touch screen was FAR preferable, and arranger players really only need 61 notes, here's Yamaha telling them they were wrong all along! :woohoo:

Now I wait anxiously for all the exact same people to say how cool the touchscreen and 76 is... :P
Last Edit: 16 Oct 2017 04:13 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 17 Oct 2017 00:47 #6339

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Genos has three big improvements..

Touch screen .. improves any keyboard..

Acoustic piano seems much better...

Drums are much improved...


This would be a great keyboard with a $2,500 street price.. It is way over priced..same with the Korg PA4x..
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