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TOPIC: Yamaha Genos

Yamaha Genos 02 Oct 2017 15:20 #6290

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The official announcement was made. Great new Revo drums and overall sound. Meanwhile, Roland appears to be slipping further and further behind both Yamaha and Korg in the arranger wars. :(
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 09:15 #6291

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I would replace the ugly word "war" here with "world" or "scene".
Much nicer i.m.h.o. The world is mad enough these days.
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Last Edit: 03 Oct 2017 09:16 by Willem52.
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 21:20 #6292

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The war is over! I’m not sure if any of you guys have noticed, but there hasn’t been a Roland TOTL arranger since the G 70/E80

However, if you would like to compare models with a similar price ( I know, what a concept! ) perhaps you would like to take a look at any Yamaha or Korg model at about the same price as an EA7.. At this price point, TBH, the EA7 compares quite favorably.

But if your focus is on the $3500 and up market, then yes, obviously, Roland is out of the game. Do you want to play that game? Obviously, Roland do not..!. And, in all fairness, given the emphasis on synths and soft instruments these days, perhaps they made the right decision.

As I have said many times, until Roland show us that they can make a down market arranger without screwing up, perhaps it is just as well they are not screwing up in the more expensive market as well ..!

Maybe, once they start to release down market arrangers with some actual content for the features they provide ( you know I am talking about the EA7’s sampler and multi-pads!) it will be time for them to revisit the high-end market.

Until then ...
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Yamaha Genos 03 Oct 2017 21:43 #6293

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Diki wrote:
The war is over! I’m not sure if any of you guys have noticed, but there hasn’t been a Roland TOTL arranger since the G 70/E80

However, if you would like to compare models with a similar price ( I know, what a concept! ) perhaps you would like to take a look at any Yamaha or Korg model at about the same price as an EA7.. At this price point, TBH, the EA7 compares quite favorably.

But if your focus is on the $3500 and up market, then yes, obviously, Roland is out of the game. Do you want to play that game? Obviously, Roland do not..!. And, in all fairness, given the emphasis on synths and soft instruments these days, perhaps they made the right decision.

As I have said many times, until Roland show us that they can make a down market arranger without screwing up, perhaps it is just as well they are not screwing up in the more expensive market as well ..!

Maybe, once they start to release down market arrangers with some actual content for the features they provide ( you know I am talking about the EA7’s sampler and multi-pads!) it will be time for them to revisit the high-end market.

Until then ...

Diki, I agree with your comments, the war is over and Roland lost. I will be looking at the Yamaha 970/770 replacements in a couple years (I have an EA7).
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Yamaha Genos 04 Oct 2017 21:04 #6294

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I am wondering what you consider is the defining feature in the Yamaha S9xx series that would dictate a move away from the Roland EA7?

I have to admit, on a sheer visceral sound quality level, I still think Roland has the far more live and punchy sound. And the ability to add audio loops to the multi pads seems a lot better implemented in the Rolands. Not to mention the ease of having instant access to all your styles and sequences and MP3s from the USB stick rather than having to preload everything.

The grass may certainly look greener in the TOTL market segment, but in the mid price market, Roland still have a lot to offer.
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Yamaha Genos 04 Oct 2017 22:55 #6295

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billtracy wrote:
Diki wrote:
I am wondering what you consider is the defining feature in the Yamaha S9xx series that would dictate a move away from the Roland EA7?

I have to admit, on a sheer visceral sound quality level, I still think Roland has the far more live and punchy sound. And the ability to add audio loops to the multi pads seems a lot better implemented in the Rolands. Not to mention the ease of having instant access to all your styles and sequences and MP3s from the USB stick rather than having to preload everything.

The grass may certainly look greener in the TOTL market segment, but in the mid price market, Roland still have a lot to offer. .

Of course, I only said I will be looking not necessarily buying. It would depend how many features make it from the Genos to the MOTL. I like the new drums and the new interface. The Style Creator looks like it would be easy to get around on. But you are right, Roland still has some advantages, so I'll have to see where I'm at then.
Last Edit: 04 Oct 2017 22:58 by billtracy.
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Yamaha Genos 05 Oct 2017 22:16 #6296

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I'm not expecting much from the Genos, at $5500 will make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger (that's street price for both Genos and E-A7).

Are you? :evil:

Most of us forget how affordable and down-market the E-A7 is. Even an S970 is $2000 street. :woohoo:

You may well be able to afford the Genos, or maybe an S970, but how about we compare apples to apples, not Ferrari's to Camry's?!

You want to compare the E-A7 to a Yamaha, it MUST be to the S770. And, you might also look at how long T5 technology took to get trickled down to the S series... Here's a hint: IT HASN'T! We are barely seeing T4 technology in the S series. So you might be holding your breath for a long time for Genos exclusive technology to make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger. :dry:
Last Edit: 05 Oct 2017 22:24 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 05 Oct 2017 22:44 #6297

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Diki wrote:
I'm not expecting much from the Genos, at $5500 will make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger (that's street price for both Genos and E-A7).

Are you? :evil:

Most of us forget how affordable and down-market the E-A7 is. Even an S970 is $2000 street. :woohoo:

You may well be able to afford the Genos, or maybe an S970, but how about we compare apples to apples, not Ferrari's to Camry's?!

You want to compare the E-A7 to a Yamaha, it MUST be to the S770. And, you might also look at how long T5 technology took to get trickled down to the S series... Here's a hint: IT HASN'T! We are barely seeing T4 technology in the S series. So you might be holding your breath for a long time for Genos exclusive technology to make it to a $1300 Yamaha arranger. :dry:

Some of the major features would have to make it to the MOTL for me to consider it. Such as the Revo drums, the touchscreen and interface and the playlist feature. I compared the 770 to the E-A7 and obviously went with Roland mostly because I was familiar with Roland having owned a BK3 and because I prefer Roland's performance system. Since then I have taken a look at registrations and I see how they are more powerful albeit more complex. Hopefully, the playlist feature will make them easier to work with. But this is all speculation. After putting this much work into Roland I may stick with them.
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 05:34 #6299

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It is an interesting exercise to look at when Tyros models first used a particular technology (SA2, for instance) and then how many years passed before that technology made it first into the flagship S-series model, then finally down to the budget S-series. It's all well and good to dream, but the stark fact is, by the time anything from the Genos makes its way down to a $1300 Yamaha, you will be salivating over what the newest TOTL Yamaha has, and in all likelihood, Roland will have had a budget arranger out for a while that sounds as good!

In all fairness, Roland had a terrific functional touchscreen over a decade ago. It has taken Yamaha that long just to catch up with the G70! You might also note that, for a touchscreen to be affordable at the low end MOTL market, Roland had to go to a B&W screen. The touchscreen will be one of the most expensive components in the Genos, and the odds of it EVER getting into a budget arranger are slim to none! Roland certainly couldn't manage to make the BK-9 as affordable as it was, and as powerful as it was, and still include the touchscreen from the G70/E80! It's something of a trade-off.

The jury is still out on how well the Genos screen is implemented. Compare a PA4X screen to a G70 (nearly ten years its junior) and you realize that design and implementation is still critical (I am not personally a big fan of the PA4X screen, or layout). Plus, the PA3X screen was sluggish and difficult to reliably hit. A touch screen is only as good as its design and ergonomics. I have played almost every keyboard ever made with a touchscreen, and some are great, and some are dogs! I'd definitely wait on reliable user reports on how well the system is for live play....
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 16:23 #6300

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As I said, I'll see what the Yamaha MOTL really has and what any future Roland arrangers have and make a choice. By then, I will have 2 years or so work into the EA7 and abandoning that to trade brands would be a significant step as well. I've never had a touch screen so I have to be convinced, but the Yamaha interface looks nice. But if the Revo drums and other features don't make it to MOTL that would be a deal breaker.
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Yamaha Genos 07 Oct 2017 22:37 #6301

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A sound plan...

As I have noted before, my replace and re-work timeline is a lot longer than most... I like to get close to 10 years on each new arranger before I need to totally re-do everything (after all, what's the point of an upgrade if you use legacy data and sounds, and end up sounding almost exactly the same?!), and I think there is a world of untapped potential in my BK-9 (I still don't yet extensively use Key Audio much, or integrate sequencing with audio clips, so there's a long way for me to up my game without changing arrangers), and at today's rather more glacial development pace of arrangers (even Korg and Yamaha are releasing new arrangers at a slower pace than back during the peak of their popularity, it isn't just Roland!) I think it will be that long before there is anything out at an affordable price that simply blows my BK-9 away (for the kind of music I do).

If I did a lot of EDM, yes, I think I'd be looking to upgrade (or, more realistically, move away from arrangers altogether!), but for the more legacy stuff I play (40's-80's American and UK pop, R&B, reggae, country etc.) I'm still pretty content with what I can get out of the BK-9.

Are there some things in the Genos I would dearly love? Hell yes! Am I willing to pay $5500 for them?

Hell no! :evil:
Last Edit: 07 Oct 2017 22:38 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 08 Oct 2017 12:53 #6302

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I did not like the sounds of Genos! They are all electronic, but the Roland is very close to natural sound (accordion, saxophone, guitar, etc.)
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Yamaha Genos 09 Oct 2017 23:29 #6305

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I agree with you Loshk,I take a good headphone to listen more carefull to the sound ,first impressoin i realy miss the low frequency power on it.But it's a video demo!
Yamaha sound It's a matter of personal tast. It doesn't say the yamaha sounds are bad. We here love the Roland sounds!
Yamaha had always a pretty dry-,clean sound and very hard on de edge's, make it sound (to perfect) digital as you say Electronic.

The whole concept of the GENOS it's perfect! I have to admit (so far we can see! it needs a bit more time to see the reality behavior).
The GENOS concept, It fulfill my wishlist of what i like to have on a TOTL arranger! expect from the price $5.500 arround $4.000 would be better!

I'm also a little disappointing on the factory style's SO old fashion traditional Basic keyboard-arranger player genre ala party schlager-festival ect..,but it should not be the problem to have/make your own style gerne.
I also found it a missed change to have only 4 multipads while on the right side there would be enough room for a 4X4 multipad area.

It's already a few years I suggest a crossover synht like FA(-07) with a BK/EA7 arranger function on top off it. Again a HINT TO ROLAND!!

AVIRO
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2017 00:03 by aviro.
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Yamaha Genos 10 Oct 2017 23:07 #6308

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About the only thing that has so far utterly blown me away in all the Genos demos is the pedal steel...

I still can't figure out how it is bending only the one note INSIDE the chord. Is it locating the second and bending it into a third? Is it depressing the third into a second until you release a pedal? Is it only working on the top or bottom note of a chord?

I have worked with other keyboards that could bend one note and not the others, but they have all relied on me lifting off the notes that should not bend (while I hold the sustain) and only bending the notes actually held. Unfortunately, an almost unworkable system for anything other than really slow lines! :S

But yes, the drums have got a LOT better, the round robin sample switching is one of those 'about time' features that may help move along the rest of the industry to adopt one of the things that has made VST drum libraries into the powerhouses they have become. Particularly when you think how robotically some of the old legacy styles were programmed, something that alternates samples at the exact same velocity level (or within a certain window, I'm not altogether clear how Yamaha have implemented this yet) can only help make a bunch of older styles come alive.

However, as in all things, a lot depends on the EASE of editing those older styles. For comparison, try editing a Korg style on a Korg, and a Roland on a Roland. I have done both. Roland is MASSIVELY easier, and despite that, more powerful. Certain functions on the Korg (raising or lowering Part velocities is one, something that is critical to being able to use multi-layer drum kits to their best, or any vel-layered sound, for that matter) needs to be done individually, on each Division of the Style, AND each Chord Variation of the style! :woohoo: An insane amount of work to do something that takes a couple of button presses on a Roland. B)

As I have always said, unless something is pretty easy to do, even if it CAN be done, it probably won't! I have yet to see the Genos's style and SMF editing capabilities, but the will have had to up their game considerably from the Tyros to get close to how easy things already are on the Roland's.

We don't have a lot to crow about these days, but editing ease is still one of them! And, when it comes to it, that is what makes the difference between not using an old style or sequence, and being able to edit it to be close to as good as the ROM styles. Also, given that probably 90% of the legacy SMF's out there adhere to Roland standards, I think Yamaha and Korg do themselves a disservice not concentrating on making it easier to nudge and adjust old sequences to best use their sounds and kits...
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2017 23:09 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 16:50 #6314

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Yamaha Genos..
Last Edit: 24 Oct 2017 06:44 by Attila.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 16:54 #6315

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I think the sounds are great, especially the new drums which are among the best on any arranger IMO. If I remember right, Martin Harris stated they had made some of the styles less busy. $5000, well that's another conversation, but it is in line with their previous TOTL. Too much for me and my personal use though.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 17:02 #6316

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OK.. :cheer:
Last Edit: 24 Oct 2017 06:45 by Attila.
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Yamaha Genos 11 Oct 2017 21:34 #6317

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I wouldn't either! But you're right, Roland has a great sound. I was listening to styles with everything shut off but drums and they sounded very good. I am using a combination of the stock Roland kits (with editing) and the Dynamix "Modern" drums.
Last Edit: 11 Oct 2017 21:35 by billtracy.
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Yamaha Genos 12 Oct 2017 00:05 #6319

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I CAN hear some improvement to the T5 sound in the Genos. The drums are definitely better...

But, in fairness, when a $1000 cheaper Korg or a $3000-3500 cheaper Roland can approach the drums of the Genos, I don't think Yamaha can really clap themselves on the back, yet. Other than that and a few other new sounds (I did like the C7 piano, but jury's out until I hear it played in less capable hands than Mr. Martin!) TBH, it's VERY much a continuation of the Tyros sound.

Which, if you loved it, you already have one, and if you didn't, you got a Korg or a Roland!

Which is why we are all here... :evil:
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Yamaha Genos 12 Oct 2017 00:10 #6320

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Also, yes... I believe some of us may be starting to realize that the 'sound' of an arranger depends VERY much on how and who programmed the styles.

Put Roland styles into a Yamaha, it can often sound punchier. Put Yamaha styles into a Korg and it often sags a bit. The guys who do the programming, and especially the selection team and QC team have a massive amount to do with how an arranger is 'voiced'.

Which leads me right back to... How easy are the style editing tools to use? If they are simple, you will make light work of massaging conversions to sound great.

If not... You probably won't bother! :dry:
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Yamaha Genos 15 Oct 2017 11:59 #6335

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This video explains the difference between GENOS and Tyros 5

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Yamaha Genos 16 Oct 2017 04:13 #6338

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All in all, a worthy upgrade. But hardly worth a name change, is it? :evil: Tyros 7 would have done nicely! Maybe 'TyrosX' could have acknowledged the touchscreen, with TyrosX2 etc. for future models. But Genos seems to imply something utterly new, which this video explains quite graphically how it isn't! :dry:

I am also hugely entertained at the 76 only form factor and touchscreen. After listening to Yamaha fanboys for YEARS say the non-touch screen was FAR preferable, and arranger players really only need 61 notes, here's Yamaha telling them they were wrong all along! :woohoo:

Now I wait anxiously for all the exact same people to say how cool the touchscreen and 76 is... :P
Last Edit: 16 Oct 2017 04:13 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 17 Oct 2017 00:47 #6339

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Genos has three big improvements..

Touch screen .. improves any keyboard..

Acoustic piano seems much better...

Drums are much improved...


This would be a great keyboard with a $2,500 street price.. It is way over priced..same with the Korg PA4x..
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Yamaha Genos 17 Oct 2017 21:39 #6343

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In fairness, Fran, I've always felt that the CONTENT is what you are paying for in an arranger. High quality professional styles don't come cheap, nor multipad and live audio drum patterns. Sure, you get tons of arps with a WS, but they aren't integrated, they aren't capable of doing entire songs without a ton of work, you don't get professionally played intros, endings, fills, all that good stuff.

Then you don't get hundreds and hundreds of Registration/Performances that are usable and already made for a ton of popular songs.

Then the other thing you get in an arranger (if it is done well) is swapability of sounds... Contrary to the somewhat grab-bag assortment of sounds in a WS (some way louder or quieter than others, some effected to hell and back, some nearly dry), you can be playing a sax Part, grab a flute or a Rhodes or a ukelele (!) and in all likelihood you won't be dashing to the volume slider to turn it down or up..!

All that extra attention to detail don't come cheap...

You want the ultimate flexibility, high quality sounds and cheap price, then a WS is your huckleberry! But don't expect to take it out the box and gig! And THAT is what I think we are primarily paying for. B)
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Yamaha Genos 18 Oct 2017 08:24 #6344

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Diki wrote:
... the CONTENT is what you are paying for in an arranger. High quality professional styles don't come cheap, ....

I totally agree with the Diki in this
This could be guessed right after the appearance of the styles for the Roland E-50, E-80, BK-7m, BK-9. All styles, which were before this time, were significantly were simpler.
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Last Edit: 18 Oct 2017 08:27 by loshk.
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Yamaha Genos 18 Oct 2017 09:59 #6345

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I have the idea that especially the younger people want to have self made unique samples.
They make often a totally other kind of music than the older music players do.

In the case of more simple styles, that could just be what we need using more :)
Too busy sounding accompaniment can i.m.h.o. badly influence the players efforts.
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Last Edit: 18 Oct 2017 10:00 by Willem52.
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Yamaha Genos 18 Oct 2017 11:08 #6346

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In styles ranging from E-50 for the first time introduced a different level of complexity from 1 to 4 (Variation 1 ... 4) and corresponding Intro - before this was not. For the creative approach, I use more the style of level 1 (do not interfere with creating parts of other instruments except for drums and bass guitar)
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Last Edit: 18 Oct 2017 11:12 by loshk.
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Yamaha Genos 19 Oct 2017 05:02 #6348

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Willem52 wrote:
In the case of more simple styles, that could just be what we need using more :)
Too busy sounding accompaniment can i.m.h.o. badly influence the players efforts.

There's a lot to be said to using the Track Mute button (which in Style Mode the default behavior is to turn off all but the Bass and Drums) while you are playing. I often have it mapped to the D-Beam, so I can quickly turn off the ACC and strip the style down. If you have more than a washy pad in the LH (say a piano or Rhodes) and a good sound in the RH that is good for lines OR chords, you would be amazed at how well such stripped down backing allows you to hear YOU...

You can also have the Track Mute button deal with getting rid of ACC, and then D-Beam gets rid of ABASS, allowing you to do an MBS line.

There are a wealth of possibilities that can allow you to do remixing on the fly with a style, and especially the D-Beam and Part Mutes can be configured on a per-Performance basis. So set up your full, normal setup with one Performance, and then make a secondary performance with say Bass, drums and guitars (no keys, no horns or strings), another with Bass and drums muted, etc. etc..

The seamless nature of Roland Performance switching allows you to jump back and forth to your heart's content!

Less IS more... more or less! :evil:
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Yamaha Genos 19 Oct 2017 09:18 #6350

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That is exactly the way I like to do it, Diki.
And indeed, switching parts with D-Beam is such a great flexible option.
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Yamaha Genos 19 Oct 2017 16:51 #6351

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I guess one of the issues with arranger styles is, do you create them for pros who can play well, or do you create them for beginners who play very basically?

This is the knife edge all arrangers walk. Strip them down (I don't mean mute/unmute them, but have simple versus complex parts) and the pro finds room to play what he (or she!) wants to play, but that same simplified style sounds empty and bare to a player who is doing little else but a single finger LH chord and a single note melody in the RH...

In the past, Roland traditionally went for the more stripped down styles, leaving room for the player, and Yamaha went enthusiastically after the player who needs it all played for him (I know this is a simplification, but it definitely reflects a 'sound' I have noticed over the last two decades).

With the Genos, it seems Yamaha is trying to woo the better players, and lately, it seems like Roland is going after more beginner players, with some busier styles and more downmarket arrangers (no TOTL or even MOTL arranger in their lineup, lately!).

At least the good news is, there is a huge back catalog of compatible Roland styles for the newer arranger with more of Roland's 'stripped down' philosophy. Master the Makeup Tools, and you can often make these sound as good as the newer styles...

Sadly, in my little backwoods area of the world, I doubt I will EVER get to see a Genos. But at least that removes temptation, too! :woohoo:
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Yamaha Genos 20 Oct 2017 21:22 #6356

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Do pros play arrangers? Most of the musicians I know play from the sheet, however cannot press any button fields.

Back to the topic, Yamaha‘s style format is more flexible than the format from the Roland arranger, which limits the possibilities. E.g. the bass line sometimes could be a little larger than an octave only. (But I would also have an idea for the expansion of Yamaha's style format.)
In my eyes, the style specification is the big difference.

Addition:
My latest test how arpeggiators can be used for accompaniments has shown me weak spots of arrangers. The attached sample (recorded on Roland BK) tries to follow an old composition as near as possible. The result is moderate...
Attachments:
Last Edit: 21 Oct 2017 13:51 by Kerry Oki.
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Yamaha Genos 21 Oct 2017 10:32 #6357

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It is depending how you will stretch the meaning of what pro's are...
Nowadays people have there own explanation about its meaning :)
I think that in this case you can say: an experienced arranger player.
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
Last Edit: 21 Oct 2017 10:35 by Willem52.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 01:45 #6361

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Well, I've made a living playing arrangers as my main keyboard for nearly 30 years! Does that count?! I mean full-time, 5+ gigs a week, close to year round. That qualify as 'pro'? :evil:

Now, don't get me wrong... I haven't always played a one man band. But I've always USED arrangers. I play them in live bands, I play them in duos or trios, I use them solo. I like them better than WS's for live use. And that's coming from someone with a big Kurzweil WS and a Korg WS. They get their use mostly in studio work. What they do well, they do REALLY well. But playing live, unless you have tons of time to laboriously set up Performances and layouts for everything you could possibly need, they suck, IMHO!

Let me explain...

I am a strong two handed keyboard player. That means, I can play at least two parts in a band situation pretty decently. Want a piano/organ layer in the LH and some tasty brass in the RH? No problem. Want piano in the RH and brass parts in the LH? No problem..! It is the standard trick of good pro keyboard players for decades. Sure, nowadays, you look at the kids playing on TV, they are hard pressed to just play a Rhodes part or a synth pad by itself. But live band playing, unless you are relying on tracks (something no respectable pro would have even considered, 20 years ago!), it's pretty much down to YOU. So, that's how I grew up.

I also play with a lot of different people, different bands, different music, and rarely get the time to set up a four hour gig's worth of presets on a fancy WS. Way too much work. They aren't balanced, their effects architecture usually makes it difficult to get the sound you want effected correctly without faffing around in the edit pages. Their patches are hardly ever volume balanced, their EQ's need work, it's a major pain. And I say that having worked with Motif's, Fantom's, Triton's, Krome's, Kurzweil's, you name it.

If you want a keyboard that, when the bandleader calls a tune and you go 'This probably needs a Hammond in the LH, and some switchable brass section and Wurlitzer EP in the RH, and a nice tempo-synced delay on the horns' you can do it in the first four bars... If not, sooner! THAT is why I use arrangers..!

In the studio, all the time in the world, sure, knock yourself out! Spend 30 min balancing some pads and a piano. Use VSTi's, tweak the resonant filter in a synth sound for ten minutes to sit it in the track. Live, you don't have that luxury. TBH, I think that's why I see more and more young keyboard players playing little else but a Nord Electro (one sound at a time) and maybe a mono-synth. The art of HAVING to cover everything the guitarist isn't playing seems to be a lost one, and the kids rely on tracks.

But for those of us that can still PLAY with both hands, sadly, a WS isn't always the best tool for the job. B)
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 02:01 #6362

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Kerry Oki wrote:
My latest test how arpeggiators can be used for accompaniments has shown me weak spots of arrangers. The attached sample (recorded on Roland BK) tries to follow an old composition as near as possible. The result is moderate...

You want to detail how you did this? TBH, this spotlights more how poor the input is (inaccurate chord playing) and how poorly the arp timing locks to the swing factor of the style, rather than how poorly arrangers work... No offense, but have you ever tried locking arp loops to a jazz composition before? In a WS? Slow jazz triplet time is VERY different to strict triplets. That's why there is such a thing as the 'swing factor'.

You also have to consider that arrangers and arpeggiators have two COMPLETELY different ways of dealing with input. An arpeggiator doesn't figure out what chord anything is. It just plays what you are holding down, whether it makes sense or not. An arranger ALWAYS looks to what you are playing and then tries to figure out a a proper chord from it. Because of this, if your input isn't smooth, and correct to time, you don't get 'glitches' on an arpeggiator (as it tries to correct the chord to your bad timing). It plays whatever the hell you played, right or wrong (that arp on an arpeggiator would be VERY wrong is spots, as you played the chord late in spots and it wouldn't have corrected the wrong notes).

Im sorry, but if you NEED arps, get them from something that does arps. But they are no substitute for an arranger if you want decent chord following of less than PERFECT input.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 12:14 #6366

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Okay you said an arranger is the better stage piano. I have no remark in addition.

My equipment has no arpeggio, that‘s why I checked a style implementation instead. Yes I agree the swing factor is an option. The question is not decideable when classic meets jazz (Under similar condition Jacques Loussier also used strict triplets.) But my concern is to be pointed out to the limitation on 1 octave, 2 are necessary for my purpose. For a short moment I thought, Yamaha‘s parameter ‚high key‘ and ,note limit‘ could solve the problem. Presumably this is a mistake.

###

If Genos was my concern, I would look for the style engine (more flexible) and the arpeggio first.
Last Edit: 22 Oct 2017 12:16 by Kerry Oki.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 15:07 #6368

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Good.
Last Edit: 24 Oct 2017 06:43 by Attila.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 18:03 #6370

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Kerry Oki wrote:
Okay you said an arranger is the better stage piano. I have no remark in addition.

Find ANYWHERE I said that... (what language do you speak?) :dry:

Note I laid out VERY specifically how I (and most pro keyboardists that go back to the 'you HAVE to play everything yourself' days!) use keyboards. If you want a one trick pony, get a one trick pony. But, back in the 'real world', no-one is humping my B3, Leslie, Fender Rhodes, Yamaha CP70, and a half dozen synths around. It is just me, these days! So I look for ONE keyboard that covers it all. That involves compromise.

Yes, I find a weighted 88 the best keybed for a piano sound. But it is also the worst for 90% else. Try doing great B3 licks on an 88. Ouch! The fully weighted keyboard is excellent at getting pianistic dynamics. But piano is only one sound in a laundry list of others you need, and their dynamics are utterly different.

If you go back and read my post more carefully, you will see where I said that, in the studio, with no time constraints, I use whatever does that ONE task the best. I was very specific in praising arrangers as a 'one stop' go to keyboard that covered EVERYTHING well, if not necessarily the best, given time and unlimited freight haulage! If someone else were moving my gear, if I only played with bands I had days to set up everything they needed in advance, hell, I'd look like Rick freakin' Wakeman still!

But that's not reality, these days.

Please make a better effort to not put words in my mouth in future, Attila.

An arranger isn't better than a stage piano at being a stage piano. But it's a BLOODY sight better than a stage piano for 90% of the other sounds! If all YOU need is a stage piano... use one!

I need a hell of a sight more.
Last Edit: 22 Oct 2017 18:03 by Diki.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 18:12 #6371

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By the way, if you need arpeggios that extend past the octave limit of the arranger engine, have you considered using TWO Parts?

Hocket the arpeggio between Parts, and have one Part do the lower octave and the other take over for the upper octave.

Look, I see what you are getting at. An arranger isn't an arpeggiator. Doh! :P Of course it isn't. But, OTOH, an arpeggiator isn't an arranger, either. They both have VERY specific ways of working, utterly different to each other. Personally, I am not impressed with any arranger's (including the Genos) arpeggiator functions. Compared to a MODERN arpeggiator (think Montage, etc.) they are 20 years behind.

Personally, if I wanted to make live music that involved arps AND arranger play, I'd MIDI a WS to an arranger. And if I didn't want to make live music but studio only, I wouldn't touch either with a bargepole! I'd use the best that software could do (I'm a big Omnisphere fan!) and blow both away.

Sure, if you want retro 80's arpeggiators in an arranger environment, Yamaha might be the way to go. But if you want to sound contemporary, with a single live keyboard doing both arranger and arp play, I think your wait is not yet over.
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Yamaha Genos 22 Oct 2017 21:20 #6372

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Don't get me wrong, I wanted to say: I understand, the arranger is much more handy for you. Let's leave this topic.
No, I have'nt considered 2 parts, but it would solve the problem.
Thanks.
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Yamaha Genos 23 Oct 2017 17:13 #6375

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I get keyboard player after keyboard player (and other band members) come up to me and ask what keyboard I am using, it sounds GREAT!

All of them are astonished that it is an arranger, all of them are astonished when I show them how easy and quick it is to use as a live keyboard in a band. All the keyboard players are astonished at how simple and quick it is to selects sounds, to set split, to adjust the Part volumes so it can be used live on the fly. They honestly have never seen something so simple and quick. They are all running Motif's, or Fantom's, Kronos's, Nord Stage's, etc..

I still contend, FOR LIVE USE, nothing beats an arranger if you are playing out live, and are not doing a rote show that you have set completely up in advance. Unless you tend to be the kind of player that only plays one sound at a time (I'm thinking, by your stage piano comment, that that may be more your thing, Atilla), the arranger is DESIGNED for this speed and flexibility. A WS certainly isn't!
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Yamaha Genos 23 Oct 2017 18:12 #6377

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?!
Last Edit: 24 Oct 2017 05:00 by Attila.
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Yamaha Genos 24 Oct 2017 04:13 #6379

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:ohmy:
Ohhhh My!!!
Attila wrote:
Diki, I think you are mistaking me for someone else !

I am not sure why are you commenting things aimed at me. I am astonished to see you write:

"Unless you tend to be the kind of player that only plays one sound at a time (I'm thinking, by your stage piano comment, that that may be more your thing, Atilla)"

You also say : "Please make a better effort to not put words in my mouth in future, Attila."

1. I never commented on any stage piano !! (and if I'll do I'll have the decency and back bone to do it in my own name !!)

2. I never put any words into anybodies mouth, I don't come here to argue with anyone, I only come here to get advise when I'm stuck on stuff, and to read about new things


It is very sad to see that you are targeting me for things that I never sad, I am not registered here under multiple names. I have ONLY one name !!!


Please check the internet address, and also use the person's name that you are targeting, and not someone else's based on an assumption.
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Yamaha Genos 24 Oct 2017 04:58 #6380

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Felipepaz, I would like to ask you kindly to remove my quote.
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Yamaha Genos 24 Oct 2017 16:46 #6381

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Attila, I apologize. Yes indeed, I confused the comment from Kerry Oki as being from you.

My mistake.

TBH, If you reread the thread, it is pretty obvious I am responding to the wrong person. I am not sure why you got so bent out of shape. These things happen. :lol:

You will note, the quote that I responded to had Kerry Oki's name attached to the quote. So anyone that wasn't determined to find fault might have easily concluded I made a mistake. You, on the other hand, were determined from the start it was a deliberate insult. Me, I tend to assume that (especially on a forum with posters that are seldom posting in their native language) we are just not quite understanding each other.

Perhaps you could try that in future?! :evil:
Last Edit: 24 Oct 2017 16:52 by Diki.
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