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TOPIC: Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard

Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 00:38 #6141

  • felipepaz
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Dear, colleagues of this wonderful forum of users arrangers of Roland. A curiosity has been pounding my head for some time:

_ Could I use a module like Fantom Xr or XV5080 in my Bk-9 or any arranger in the rhythms and uppers functions for live performances? :dry:

I'll try to be clearer, I could pick up a rhythm from the Bk-9 and use a battery kit mounted on the module and use the Bk-9 Uppers at the same time or vice versa. As if the module were an expansion of Bk-9.
So I would save the performance, and when I switched on the devices, already configured the MIDI channels, and loaded the performance on the BK-9 if it would fetch the module automatically ... anyway, it would "marry" the module as a bank of Expansion for both uppers and rhythms / styles.

What is the purpose? Would be to use samplers, and timbres that I miss on BK-9, like some guitars, saxophones and drums. :side:

Thank you very much in advance B)
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2017 00:39 by felipepaz.
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 20:31 #6145

  • Fran
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I tried to use the sounds from my 5080 with my G1000.... it had major issues with timing... I think one or both the processors were not up to the job..

I did use the JV1010 with the G1000. It worked but it sounded better with the G1000 sounds..
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 21:00 #6148

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Faster processors in the BK series should deal with latency issues, but the biggest problem in using external modules for STYLES is that the Roland cannot select ANY external PC/32/00 code, only ones that correspond to Internal ROM Tones. So, any Tones and Kits in the module (EDIT: 'that do not correspond to Internal Tone addresses') can only be addressed by the Keyboard section or Sequencer (and even the Keyboard section has to have the sequencer play the PC/32/00 code in for the Tone and defeat the PC transmission from the Keyboard Part itself).

This is an issue I have long complained about to Roland, but it appears that Roland aren't interested in selling Integra7's or other Roland modules to Roland arranger users... :ohmy: :dry:

And they wonder why sales are down..? :( :evil:
Last Edit: 25 Jul 2017 19:44 by Diki.
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 21:34 #6149

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Fran wrote:
I tried to use the sounds from my 5080 with my G1000.... it had major issues with timing... I think one or both the processors were not up to the job..

I did use the JV1010 with the G1000. It worked but it sounded better with the G1000 sounds..

Uau... so strange those issues from XV5080, but ok. tks.
JV1010 worked but sounds thinner or what? i heard good impressions from this JV1010.
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 21:45 #6150

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Diki wrote:
but the biggest problem in using external modules for STYLES is that the Roland cannot select ANY external PC/32/00 code, only ones that correspond to Internal ROM Tones. So, any Tones and Kits in the module can only be addressed by the Keyboard section or Sequencer (and even the Keyboard section has to have the sequencer play the PC/32/00 code in for the Tone and defeat the PC transmission from the Keyboard Part itself).

:( Really? ... then it only works out in SONG mode and in TONES ... :ohmy:
Diki wrote:
This is an issue I have long complained about to Roland, but it appears that Roland aren't interested in selling Integra7's or other Roland modules to Roland arranger users... :ohmy: :dry:

And they wonder why sales are down..? :( :evil:
:angry: I wanted to meet Roland's director of arranger development personally and find out what he has against keyboards arrangers
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 24 Jul 2017 21:50 #6151

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Every time I think of implementing some upgrade in my Roland arrangers, I stumble upon a company dumbness making it practically impossible to add Roland's own peripherals to my set
:angry:
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2017 21:50 by felipepaz.
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 25 Jul 2017 14:11 #6153

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Wait a moment, if it is possible to use the arrajandor in the rhythmic mode connected in a notebook, via USB / MIDI, with the kontakt program, for example, in a module would not be the thing thing, just create your performance married the MIDI channels with the Keyboard, turning off the "progama change" ... and so .....???
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 25 Jul 2017 14:22 #6154

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Maybe someone will ask me, "so why do not you use a notebook with kontakt?"
And I say, for two reasons, I believe that a module is a DEDICATED device for musical use, made exclusively for this purpose and also because I think it is more "professional" so to say, use such equipment than a notebook, which sometimes beyond To hang is frowned upon as a "music player" and not an instrument. If you know what I mean. ;)
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 25 Jul 2017 19:35 #6156

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Indeed, there ARE some convoluted workarounds for Roland's lack of ease of use with external gear, but primarily it is with computer gear, NOT hardware modules. Modules tend to have hardwired addresses for their sounds just like the arrangers do, so the problem still exists. Computer gear tends to be more flexible in giving them addresses, or allow remaps of incoming changes, or allow easy ignoring incoming messages.

But computer sound modules have one big drawback to being used by arranger style sections...

I don't know if you have ever looked at the raw MIDI data an arranger sends, but there is a whole bunch of stuff going on under the hood to correct for slightly late chord input. Imagine a scenario when an arranger gets a chord a 64th note late (or even a 32nd!)... The arranger outputs the OLD chord, then receives the new chord before the note is over. What does it do? keep playing the old note until the next note? Horrible! :sick: Play the new note late (and destroy the groove)? Also horrible! :S

What it does is (extremely fast so you can hardly notice) is turn on portamento (so the note doesn't re-trigger) and then plays the new note, which 'jumps' to it but without re-triggering the note, making it all but unnoticeable. Unfortunately, few computer sound engines have this ability, or respond to the codes that make this possible. So, at least in my experience, most attempts at using computer soundsets for live arranger play result in some often nasty artifacts when dealing with the arranger's attempt to mitigate slightly late chord input...

If you don't think your timing is that bad, I suggest you save an SMF of an arranger piece one day, then go look at it in a DAW's list edit... Even things you thought you had nailed will be riddled with these tiny short wrong notes followed by long slightly late notes, and code to turn portamento on (and set time to zero so it doesn't 'slide' to the new note but just 'jumps' there) and back off again. It is amazing how the arranger can do this so well you can't hardly hear it, but I think you will be shocked (if you didn't already know!) about how often this happens unnoticed.

On the whole, the primary use for external gear with arrangers is either SMF playback, or more often, simply for better RH/LH sounds. But it has always frustrated me that using computer soundsets for the arranger section usually ended up sounding a bit strange, from time to time. I think it is important to bring this issue up with computer soundset makers, and get the code implemented well for this function...
Last Edit: 25 Jul 2017 19:46 by Diki.
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Doubt: To Use an XV5080 or FantomXr with the Arranger Keyboard 25 Jul 2017 19:50 #6157

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BTW, those of you that HAVE tried using external gear with arrangers and complained about timing, I have a strong suspicion that the 'late note portamento' trick is the REAL reason you thought it sounded off.

What I think is happening is, you aren't hearing the tiny 'on time' wrong note, you are simply hearing the 'late' new note, without the portamento jump. Which leads you to think the timing is off. But it is more likely simply the module not doing the 'portamento at zero - jump' trick.
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