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TOPIC: E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style

E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 04 May 2017 22:43 #5878

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Hi Everybody,

I am trying to replace the bass sounds on some of my E-A7 styles with a sampled bass sound.

The problem I am having is that while when used in a style, the stock bass sounds seem to "know" the range of a bass guitar and notes never go below the low E string of a bass. This however is not the case with the sampled bass.

I tried transposing the track an octave, but then when playing some chords, the bass notes were too high.

(and unrelated, I still miss my G-1000)
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 05 May 2017 02:59 #5881

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As long as you are SURE that the Part playing the bass line is still the ABASS Part, I think you have a problem. Make sure, though. Only the ABASS Part has any range restriction on it. But yes, if it is still the ABASS Part... you are in trouble!

I think you have run up against the problem that there is (for what reason I have no idea!) no 'Part Range' parameter in the Style Composer. Something Roland really should address (for this very reason!). Most other manufacturer's style composers have this.

But as to how the arranger knows not to drop the ABASS too low, I think it is something in the style engine itself. I think (I'm guessing, but it seems to make sense) that the style engine KNOWS what each Tone is (or knows the address range of the Bass Family). So give it a bass Tone, and it automatically restricts its range. But your sampled Tone is not in that address range. User Tones have their own address range, and I don't think you can give it a Bass Family address. So the style engine doesn't know what it is. Could be anything...

About the only workaround I can think of would involve you editing the User Tone. But would probably work.

Take the sample range parameter of the lowest sample (if it is the low E sample) and restrict its range to no lower than E (or maybe D or C if it sounds good there - a lot of bass players use five-string basses these days), then substitute (or add if there are no lower samples) the lower samples with the samples from an octave higher. So, as you play below low E, it jumps up an octave. Probably a fifth or so of this set would be sufficient...

Now your ABASS Part, even if it plays well below low E, will sound samples an octave higher and your bass Part won't grovel!

An ugly fix, but until Roland add a Part Range parameter, probably the only one that will work. I would recommend though, that you contact Roland directly through their Tech Support Email system, and bring this to their attention. It is possible they know the REAL answer!
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 05 May 2017 03:35 #5882

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meilichaz wrote:
(and unrelated, I still miss my G-1000)

LOL...

As a long time (I think I gigged mine nearly 12 years!) user, I feel your pain!

But as a BK-9 user now for a few years, I have got to the point where there's only a tiny handful of things I miss.

1) The wonderful action. Still the best ever for a plastic 76 (used on the A70 MIDI Controller and VA76/G70 arranger keyboards, but no others). But heavy. I removed mine several times for repair, and it is one heavy action (lot of weights in gave it that feel). There's no way the BK-9 could be 20 lbs total with that action in it! Even the case would have to be stronger (which equals heavier) to support it. So, all in all, I'm cool with the BK-9 action. No after touch, but still as crisp and solid feeling as anything Korg or Yamaha have on arrangers three times the price. WAY better than the PSR's... :evil:

2) the Drum Variation up/down buttons. A great way to strip down a rhythm to simpler forms. Completely dropped by Roland after the G-1000 along with the Chord Sequencer until the BK-9 (which shows how little Roland understand about using arrangers!) :ohmy: Mind you, it only worked on ROM Styles. It was a bit unpredictable on User Styles. So, not perfect (needed definable note numbers).

If you need the same thing now on BK's or E-A7, because you can have multiple Drum Parts it is possible to strip sounds from one Drum Part and add them to another (as long as you have Parts to spare) and use the Track Mute button to select which Parts play. Not quite four levels, but still better than one. Oh, and you can use Pads to add percussion or other drum elements on the E-A7 without even going that far. So strip out the main ADRUM Part, and make a Pad to add them back in....

3) The two completely independent MIDI sets of ports. For working with sequencers, this was a lot easier to deal with that the current system (and no hoops to jump through with sys-ex addresses... simply plug into a different port).

4) The Direct Outs. Mind you, I think I used those live only a tiny handful of times, when my FOH engineer insisted on a separate feed for the bass part (used to play a lot of LH bass in live bands using the G-1000).

And that, my friend, is about it...

But everything I gained with the BK-9 utterly blows the G-1000 away, and I wouldn't even THINK of using one again..! The sounds, the faders, the direct from stick access, the five MFX's, the amazing B3 sim, the audio abilities, the polyphony, the speed of response (I could always hear a little flamming when using stacked sounds on the G-1000, gone since the G70 with the advent of MUCH faster processors), and on and on...

I must admit, were I using the E-A7, with its barely adequate 61 note action :sick: and severely limited soundset (compared to the BK-9), no VK organ section, no SN articulated sounds, no microphone in (most gigs I plug the mic in to the BK and only need the stereo outs to the PA, no mixer or effects), I might look back nostalgically to the G-1000 too! But if the G-1000 still makes you miss it, perhaps you should try a BK-9 instead of the E-A7? For me, it is the perfect G-1000 replacement. My G70 never quite felt that way because no Chord Sequencer (which I use a lot in Style Mode). B)
Last Edit: 05 May 2017 06:50 by Diki.
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 05 May 2017 16:38 #5884

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Diki wrote:
meilichaz wrote:
(and unrelated, I still miss my G-1000)



1) The wonderful action. Still the best ever for a plastic 76 (used on the A70 MIDI Controller and VA76/G70 arranger keyboards, but no others). But heavy. I removed mine several times for repair, and it is one heavy action (lot of weights in gave it that feel). There's no way the BK-9 could be 20 lbs total with that action in it! Even the case would have to be stronger (which equals heavier) to support it. So, all in all, I'm cool with the BK-9 action. No after touch, but still as crisp and solid feeling as anything Korg or Yamaha have on arrangers three times the price. WAY better than the PSR's... :evil:

2) the Drum Variation up/down buttons. A great way to strip down a rhythm to simpler forms. Completely dropped by Roland after the G-1000 along with the Chord Sequencer until the BK-9 (which shows how little Roland understand about using arrangers!) :ohmy: Mind you, it only worked on ROM Styles. It was a bit unpredictable on User Styles. So, not perfect (needed definable note numbers).

If you need the same thing now on BK's or E-A7, because you can have multiple Drum Parts it is possible to strip sounds from one Drum Part and add them to another (as long as you have Parts to spare) and use the Track Mute button to select which Parts play. Not quite four levels, but still better than one. Oh, and you can use Pads to add percussion or other drum elements on the E-A7 without even going that far. So strip out the main ADRUM Part, and make a Pad to add them back in....


4) The Direct Outs. Mind you, I think I used those live only a tiny handful of times, when my FOH engineer insisted on a separate feed for the bass part (used to play a lot of LH bass in live bands using the G-1000).

Yup all that plus the the physical buttons of which some of the functions can be assigned to the assignable buttons on the left on the E-A7. The gigs that I play often have dance sets that last for over 40 minutes at 160 bpm so scrolling though menus are really not an option especially because I choose songs live based on the crowd (subtle cultural details help guide the exact songs and styles)

I always used the direct outs for bass which allowed me to eq the bass depending on the room as well as using the direct outs for outboard effects on my rhythm guitars. (Using a real wah wah pedal as a one man band really got some people excited). The effect problem is solved by using the effect from the E-A7 which are more than adequate and actually give a good amount of control

Yes, I do miss aftertouch... which I used with wind instruments to add realism. I still instinctively push my finger down harder when playing flute passages.

But yes, the vast majority of the sounds are much better (aside from the signature Roland sounds that might have been groundbreaking 20 years ago but do need to be updated... can anyone say rock organ or rock rhythm 1. I still love the TC an LP guitar sounds though.

Thanks again for the tips (and empathy)
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 05 May 2017 19:52 #5886

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Being a two handed player, I have problems with the E-A7 dropping the FC-7 input and substituting seven switches on the front panel (that there are seven I do not think is a coincidence!). My hands are busy playing! I like the option of using footswitches instead. BK-9 has that...

And the BK has a nice 3 band parametric for each Part, so it is possible to EQ the bass sounds within the mix rather than externally. Let's face it - you can't EQ just the bass part on a CD to adjust for different room acoustics, yet it still sounds good everywhere as long as you EQ your PA well. I see no need to have separate outs as long as you take care with bass compression and EQ in the first place.

An interesting fact - All the audio in your E-A7 like MP3's and WAV/AIFF's comes out the main out without ANY Mastering Tools or Part EQ on it. So, it is pretty easy to compare a style or sequence or User Tone to a well recorded CD and adjust the Part EQ to match something already done well by professional sound engineers. (Same on the BK's)

Being a heavy Chord Sequencer and SMF/MP3 user, I generally have a hand free after the first verse or so (usually sung), and decades of live band playing have got me used to using the bender a LOT for bends and vibrato. I never really needed vibrato alone much (I think accurate bends are far more important to nailing the idiosyncrasies of acoustic instruments). But if you find that you do, try using a delayed vibrato instead of aftertouch. Not perfect, but probably OK for 80% of the time.

If you think the old Roland organ Tones need an update, all I can say is, you should hear the B3 sim in the BK-9! Easily the best Hammond sim available in an arranger. Plus, there are tons of newer organ sampled Tones in the BK-9, some of which have no sampled Leslie in, which makes them perfect to put through the VK Leslie MFX. Don't forget to set the velocity to 'Fixed' and use a swell pedal. Couldn't do that with the G-1000!

And forget sampled distorted guitars! Take either the SN Jazz guitar or one of the many clean guitar sounds, and run them through the GT Amp Sim MFX. Slather on some delay and reverb, turn it to '11'... rock guitar nirvana! No sampled rock guitar can come close! I don't mind those old legacy sounds being in there... they make compatibility with older styles and GS sequences problem free (then you can use the Makeup Tools to substitute clean guitars through the MFX if you have the time). As most content for arrangers is pretty old (not so many making new styles and sequences these days), retaining legacy compatibility is critical.

Did you ever try a BK-9? I'm wondering a bit why you went with the E-A7... :huh:

I'm not sure if the Roland iPad apps work with the E-A7, but I think they could be a fantastic way to keep sets going without a ton of scrolling. They work with the BK9! :evil:
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 07 May 2017 21:26 #5895

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meilichaz wrote:
I am trying to replace the bass sounds on some of my E-A7 styles with a sampled bass sound.

The problem I am having is that while when used in a style, the stock bass sounds seem to "know" the range of a bass guitar and notes never go below the low E string of a bass. This however is not the case with the sampled bass.

I tried transposing the track an octave, but then when playing some chords, the bass notes were too high.

Have you had a chance to try my solution? How well did it work?
Last Edit: 07 May 2017 21:28 by Diki.
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 07 May 2017 22:27 #5896

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All good points. The real reason why I never tried the BK-9 was that it wasn't in the budget, especially when factoring in the FC-7 and an iPad. I got the E-A7 used for a great price.

As far as your solution. I have been able to take the keyboard out over the past few days but there seems to be a window of opportunity coming up this week... I'll keep you posted
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 08 May 2017 07:15 #5897

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It isn't really fair to mourn the loss of a G-1000, while being unwilling to pay less than that cost for a BK-9 (even more so if you look around for a used one). :evil:

There's such a thing as false economy...

You don't need an FC-7, it is relatively easy to build your own substitute (they are merely standard momentary switches) or get a less expensive Korg EC-5 five switch pedal (they work fine in Roland's), and an iPad is not necessary... you can do as easy Performance selection by using the numeric buttons as you can with the E-A7, possibly easier. Yes, the iPad would be nice (and even a Mini would suffice... used ones can be as little as $100) but you don't HAVE to have one with a BK-9... I don't. :ohmy:
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 08 May 2017 18:55 #5899

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Diki wrote:
It isn't really fair to mourn the loss of a G-1000, while being unwilling to pay less than that cost for a BK-9 (even more so if you look around for a used one). :evil:

There's such a thing as false economy...

True...
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 26 May 2017 19:51 #5957

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You just need to create an "Alteration Mode" message in the bass track of the style. This allows you to specify a range for the instrument. See p.48 of the online manual for details. Hope this helps! -Ted
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 27 May 2017 15:01 #5958

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Have you actually tried this, Ted? The manual states this:

" Alteration Mode—This event allows you to specify how the notes recorded for a style track will be used during Arranger playback. See below for details.
NOTE
This parameter is not available for ADrums tracks or the Intro3, Intro4, Ending3, Ending4 divisions.
"

"This message type is only available for melodic style tracks (i.e. not for ADrums or ABass tracks) and needs to be inserted by hand"

That seems pretty vague... Is it for ABass or not? :huh:

Have you actually used this, or is this just from reading (or misreading!) the manual? :unsure:
Last Edit: 28 May 2017 20:05 by Diki.
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 28 May 2017 20:16 #5959

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The thing that worries me most about Alteration Mode from the viewpoint of a bassline is the way Alteration Mode changes a note in the line to be closest to the nearest degree of the scale to the previous note depending on the chord played. With a bassline, you don't want the actual notes played to change... only the octave.

Otherwise a root position chord could still end up with a BassInv note if the previous note was i.e. the fifth of the scale (where it would start on the fifth degree of the scale). Look at this illustration from the manual:

Generally, with a bassline, you want to be the played bassline. But with a jump in octave when it heads down below the range of a normal bass (generally, low E).

Once again, I ask... Is this something you have done and succeeded with, or just your interpretation of the manual, Ted?
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Last Edit: 29 May 2017 22:11 by Diki.
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 30 May 2017 18:24 #5961

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I looked at the E-A7 manual again, and it looks like you can set the range of "partials" for a user sample (see p.32.) You could try that, but if the note gets out of range it simply might not play at all.

I don't own an EA-7. I have inserted Alteration Mode messages in user styles on my E-50. That board is packed away right now, and I can't remember whether it let me insert them in the Bass track; probably not. I distinctly remember duplicating the bass track to one of the Acc tracks, and that's probably why I did so. I believe the difference between the ABass and Acc tracks is that the ABass is usually monophonic, and the Acc tracks don't strictly follow the Bass Inv setting. I.e., with Bass Inv on, if you play E-G-C, Acc will probably play a C note, which isn't desired for chords like C/E.

Diki, to keep the original relationship of the notes, you could specify Degree. So if the original note was sampled / recorded as C and you play a G chord, the arranger pattern would play G. The limitation is that Alteration Mode can't be applied to the ABass track.

I'm not sure why Roland doesn't allow the user to insert Alteration Mode messages in the ABass track. Looking through other manuals, In terms of style control parameters they are definitely behind Korg, Ketron, and Yamaha, which allow the user to specify a "wrapping point" and/or range on all style tracks.

A little off-topic, but the G1000 had a "Wrap" function. It was buried in part 9 of the user manual. When the feature set was combed through by the programmers to make G-70 version 2, I think this was overlooked and never restored :-(
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 30 May 2017 18:49 #5962

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Another workaround, admittedly kludgey, might be to create a MIDI loop. If the E-A7 itself, or even an external piece of gear allows you to establish a wrap/range for the notes coming out of the bass channel, you could then loop them back into the E-A7 and your problem would be solved. To account for the possible latency, you might shift all of the other style tracks to be a few ticks behind the beat.
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E-A7 Problem with Using Sampled Bass in User Style 30 May 2017 19:09 #5963

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If you'll read the earliest posts, you'll see that this is ONLY an issue on external, sampled basses (and possibly on external MIDI gear with non-Roland bass PC/32/00 codes). Internal bass sounds still wrap correctly, leading me to assume there's some code that tells the arranger engine that a sound IS a bass sound (or some code that removes the 'wrap' when addressing MIDI).

I still believe that my earlier solution is the ONLY one that will work... Create a bass sample set that transposes the sample up an octave below low E (or D, your choice). Or more accurately, uses samples from an octave higher below low E (or the low D sample will chipmunk as it gets jacked up an octave!).

What is missing, as was originally discussed, is the 'wrap range' parameter that used to be on earlier Roland's, and exists on every other arranger that has a style creation section. Not that Roland are listening (are you? :evil: )...

What is more troubling is that internal Tones and external MIDI are being treated differently...

But, bottom line, the solution, at least for our OP and the E-A7, is the simple solution of creating a bass patch that simply ups the lowest notes an octave. Problem solved! :P
Last Edit: 30 May 2017 19:41 by Diki.
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