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TOPIC: creating e-a7 style with a daw

creating e-a7 style with a daw 19 Jan 2017 12:52 #5512

  • omarbinno
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Hello, One of the users from this forum has created a youtube video that seems to show him recording a style using the E-A7 with Cuebase. From what he says, he's able to create the style without going through the steps of using the style converter to export, then convert, etc. He seems able to skip all those steps and just create the style and then save it. The video is in Arabic, and I'm blind. So this combo is obviously inefficient, to say the least, :-). My question is: is it possible to do what he's saying...Combine the use of a daw with the style composer on the E-A7 to create a style? Here's the link to the video if anyone wants to take a stab at watching his procedure. Thanks for any help!
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 21 Jan 2017 03:27 #5522

  • Vladimir B
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Well, seems like a good half of the video he explains how to connect EA-7 to a computer and where to dowload the driver...

Speaking of style creating, first he records a part into Cubase, and then plays the part back to EA-7. Why? It's hard to understand because all explaining is in Arabic... The only reason I can see is that you can edit the part in Cubase prior to playing it back to Style composer which is set to recording mode instead of playing it by hand directly.
I was angered, for I had no shoes. Then I met a man who had no feet.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 21 Jan 2017 03:58 #5523

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Yes. So I'm wondering if his method is faster than doing the entire style in a daw and then exporting and converting it then loading it into the e-a7.?
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 21 Jan 2017 04:25 #5525

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Faster? I doubt it. This way, all part creating happens in real time, track-by-track. In other words, you have to play each part twice: first time manually to a DAW, and then back from the DAW to the instrument. You already have recorded all parts to the sequencer, right? Why then play them back again in real time if you can simply render all the material as style file.
On the other hand, there is no way to load a style directly from computer to keyboard; you have to save it on a usb stick and phisically move the stick back and forth between computer and synth each time you want to edit something.
I was angered, for I had no shoes. Then I met a man who had no feet.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 21 Jan 2017 04:44 #5528

  • Diki
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I would honestly go with the Style Composer method rather than realtime transfer. Mind you, if you slow the computer's clock WAY down, you might get better results, but arrangers get very picky about things that need to play on the 'one' actually being on the 'one'... Realtime transfer introduces a bit of timing slop which you won't get actually importing the .MID into the Style Creator software.

You also still need to do a bunch of MFX and EQ related stuff in the Makeup Tools afterwards, as the sys-ex addresses for incoming MIDI are different to the addresses used internally (at least by the SMF player).

Me, I'd go for crating the basic style in Cubase, assemble into the order that the GW software needs to see, import into that and copy over the style Division bar lengths, and have it export the file.

But this DOES work, it just seems a bit cheap and cheerful! I can understand him doing it this way (the style software is a bit old, PC only, hard to track down and not that many people know about it because Roland make no mention of it) with the E-A7, in fact, at the moment, this is the ONLY way you can import MIDI multipad content as there is no SMF import or software to make MIDI multipads (and who wants to bet there ever will? :dry: )

But it strikes me as a less accurate way to get your sequences for each Division over to the arranger. And no faster, in the long run, possibly. Is time THAT important, or is accuracy?
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 15 Apr 2017 10:03 #5789

  • dymusya
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Diki wrote:
You also still need to do a bunch of MFX and EQ related stuff in the Makeup Tools afterwards, as the sys-ex addresses for incoming MIDI are different to the addresses used internally (at least by the SMF player).

Thanks Diki as always for all your onformative responces !
Thats I'm looking for,
and to not open new thread I think that's better ask for it here..
I'm preparing my midi song based on roland e-a7 style, to be more precise style 0151 Volare Gipsy , I like the sound of that style, guitars sound almost as live ;)
But the problem starts when I record them on PC ( Reaper DAW ) and then copy to USB stick reproduce on e-a7.
All parts sound, there isn't any problem , but the sound isn't same.
Because all EQ and MFX lost. THAT'S THE ISSUE.
I tried search to midi template in roland, changed it's SysEX to transmit state, but can't archive my goal.
Please, your help as always will be very apreciated !!!

PS. I also have Cubase LE AI Elements, and manage with the basics rutine there.
Besides, when I work with lyrics ( adding it to midi file, and then do some editings with MAKEUP TOOLS , do you know that roland embede lyrics in SysEx messages?
I can't do then any editing in Reaper and only can access them in Cubase editing tabs.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 16 Apr 2017 01:59 #5794

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If you read the sys-ex implementation carefully, you can see that the Parts played by the Keyboard have a different header address to the Parts played by the Player. There's no easy way (that I know of) to globally change a set of sys-ex addresses from one number to another.

On the whole, if I were you, I'd concentrate in the DAW on simply the notes. Don't get too tied up in the effects. Once the basic Parts and Divisions work well, transition well, handle all the chord types well, save it as a style, and THEN open the style in the Makeup Tools and start dealing with the effects, EQ's, drum editing etc..

I think that will save you a LOT of grief and head scratching!

Yes, your style won't sound EXACTLY like it does when played to start with, but at least you know in your mind that it will, later on when you Makeup Tool it. It is still a LOT harder to simply get the flow from one Variation to another well, to get the fills to sound coherent and not sound out of place, for Intros to smoothly run into the Variations, etc. than it is to edit the sounds to taste later on.

All in all, I'd leave all that sys-ex stuff alone, and let the Makeup Tools do it for you after the style is stitched together... B)
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 17 Apr 2017 11:21 #5803

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I've spent entire day to explore it,and found a solution! Bisedes,in roland manual they mention about the only solution to change MFX and EQ via SysEx in midi song. I've done it in Sonar in real time recording changing Mfx and eq ,then searching in timeline that precise SysEx and coping them into my midi.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 19 Apr 2017 20:15 #5814

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I look forward to hearing some of your styles... B)
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 20 Apr 2017 15:00 #5817

  • FreeEagle
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Hi dymusya!

can you tell me how you copy the SysEx and export them to your MIDI Style? btw. i am the one who create the Video above in Arabic.

Best Regards,
FreeEagle
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 20 Apr 2017 21:19 #5821

  • dymusya
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Hi guys !
Let me explain, and sorry for put it on this topic.
My goal was to prepare great midi song, not a style as you ask.
I compared style and midi song sound ( that was prepared on base of autoaccompaniment of the same style), and it sounded not so good as a style,
so I should to copy all makeup settings of MFX and EQ to archive the same sound, but it´s not as easy as it seems.
So I armed Sonar MIDI in tracks to record e-a 7 MIDI out channels and selected MIDI template to style/tone mode ( but very important to activate SysEx transmited parameters ON there . Then when recording style into SONAR I made changes ( MFX and EQ parammeters) .
All them will be reflected as a SysEx messages in Sonar, so when you change them on roland , then you can trace them on time line and save only necesarry SysEx events.
For me it´s easier then study all SysEx tabled provided by Roland.
Hope, that has sense for somebody.
best wishes.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 21 Apr 2017 19:48 #5829

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OK, my bad for confusing you making an smf with a style!

Have you tried this, though? Instead of using Sonor for the basic 'capture', you use the internal sequencer? Record the basic stuff you need as the foundation for the SMF internally, save the file, import it to Sonor and then do your editing from there.

While the file may not sound right while you work on things, once you save it with the sys-ex originally captured and then get the E-A7's file player to play, it should all sound correct now the sys-ex ID is correct once again.

You see, sys-ex does more than basic MFX and EQ selection. If there's any editing done to the kit for the style, that is also stored in sys-ex. along with any parameter adjustments to the MFX and EQ. If you have to hand select all of these to get Sonor to record them, that's going to take a while! But the internally recorded SMF should have ALL adjustments as one long sys-ex string at the start...

BTW, all this sys-ex at the beginning of an SMF can tend to disrupt timing for any notes placed on 1.1.000 beat, so I always recommend a bar of silence before your count-in or sequence start, to allow the sys-ex to get played before the notes start. You can often get a slight hiccup in the timing as the machine struggles top play a ton of sys-ex (which has to be played as one long string if recorded that way) AND get the note out all on the first tick.

Even if it's just a 1/4 bar, it can make all the difference to the timing of the first notes.

On a side note...

You might want to compare a MIDI file captured from the MIDI outs by Sonor to one captured by the internal sequencer. From quite a bit of comparison on G1000/G70/BK-9, I have found that the timing capture internally is a LOT tighter than when recorded externally from the MIDI outs. I used to find that events all solidly on tick 'one' if recorded externally tended to get smeared a bit by your Midi interface or computer OS, and I often found stuff on tick 'two' or fractionally early, as clock jitter and the nature of serial transmission of MIDI (every byte is sent one after another very quickly, not all at the same time) tends to smear reception.

While this is not super critical to notes, it CAN have an influence on ease of editing, as sometimes notes or controllers that should be on the 'one' might be a tick early. Make a cut at a bar line with the DAW, you run the risk of something important getting missed.

You can also improve the timing of notes by slowing the arranger way down when doing the initial capture (then speed it back up again afterwards). I don't know if you have noticed a lot of strange little tiny notes (just a few ticks long) before the main note and some CC code that portamento's the tiny note to the new note (with a time of zero) on some of your Parts when you look in the DAW, but these are what the machine does to compensate for if you change a chord SLIGHTLY late (just a few ticks) to correct the wrong notes (from the previous chord) into the right ones (from the chord you just played slightly late) without re-triggering the sound. You can see these whether captured internally or by the DAW.

Essentially, slowing the song way down while you capture will make your timing FAR more accurate as you play the chords, often to the point that you get very few of these glitches, which makes editing a lot easier! Plus, if you still decide to capture externally, it will tighten the timing of the capture in the first place. While the MIDI clock synchronizing the two devices won't get any more accurate as it is slowed, the speed of the data transmission remains the same, so slower clock means more time for the serial transmission to get things right.

It's subtle, but it can be felt, at times, and the improvement to editing once you don't have to deal with hundreds of 'glitch' notes is always welcome...

All in all, my workflow has always been to do the basic capture internally at a slower speed, then work with the much higher resolution file in the DAW afterwards.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 22 Apr 2017 00:45 #5832

  • dymusya
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thank you Diki,so great tips,very apreciated. I'll try your workflow too, record intermally,you mean style composer? Because e-a7 doesn't have sequencer as I know. I can't record smf,only wav records. So I guess,after record a style,it could be edited as a smf? If that's possible,anyway I should preserve track(channel) order,because tracks should correspond to its channels as they were recorded on sysEx messages.
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 22 Apr 2017 18:58 #5836

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Oops! My bad. I keep forgetting that Roland, in their infinite wisdom, decided the lower tier arrangers no longer need a proper sequencer!

I guess you are stuck with external capture. I'd definitely take seriously slowing down the song...
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 07 Jun 2017 15:50 #5977

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Hy guys, it could be a separate topic, but I post it here.
Very useful tip for those who want to pickup some effect ( for example EQ or MFX for any instrument in E=A7) for his keyboard, but the acces for it exists only by SysEx.
That was a case of my midi I've done, but in style it sounds great, with those EQ and MFX activated, but in manually prepared midi it should be put only manually..

So here's a quote that really helps archive it:

Misc: Finding SysEx messages for your keyboard
Wiki Home » Miscellaneous articles » Misc: Finding SysEx messages for your keyboard
karma-lab.png
Scenario

You want to control some feature of your keyboard that does not have a CC# available to control it (such as the Drum Track On/Off button of the M3). You've heard that perhaps it can be controlled with SysEx messages (System Exclusive). Maybe you want to use some sort of programmable MIDI Foot control or external fader box that has SysEx capabilities, but you don't know how to find out which SysEx message is the one to use, and the manuals don't seem to list anything about it.

What is SysEx?

SysEx is short for "System Exclusive." It is a special type of MIDI message that is unique according to each manufacturer. SysEx messages meant for a Korg M3 will not be listened to by a Korg OASYS, or any other keyboard for that matter. SysEx messages can generally be used to control nearly any parameter or function on the keyboard, depending on how the manufacturer has implemented them.

A Sysex message is a long string of hexadecimal (base 16) code, separated into individual bytes. (In case you don't remember your high school math classes, base 16 counts using an additional 6 characters, like this: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F 10 11 12 13 etc. So the number 10 in hexadecimal is actually the value 16.) A SysEx message always starts with "F0" and it always ends with "F7" - the bytes in between are what tell the keyboard to perform a particular function.

How to get a particular SysEx message

The best way to get the SysEx message required for a particular function is not by reading the manuals, but by hooking your keyboard up to some sort of MIDI monitoring program running on a computer (see below). Once you've made sure it is sending SysEx by moving various controls (which will then display SysEx messages in the monitoring program's window), you then adjust or activate and deactivate the parameter or feature you want to control. You will see the resulting SysEx message that you need to use.

Note: For your keyboard to transmit any SysEx at all, you have to enable the Exclusive checkbox in the Global MIDI settings.

For example, this is how you turn on and off the Drum Track button of the Korg M3 (in Combi Mode):

On: F0 42 30 75 41 00 00 20 00 0A 00 00 00 00 01 F7
Off: F0 42 30 75 41 00 00 20 00 0A 00 00 00 00 00 F7
^^
The second last byte (shown by ^^) is the on=01 / off=00 part. The rest of the message basically says "I am for a Korg M3, and I want to control the Drum Track on/off parameter."

Using this with an external device

Typically, in external controller boxes or programmable foot controllers that allow you to control SysEx, there will be a way to enter the entire message shown above, and somehow designate the last byte before the "F7" as being the variable byte. [need more information here, specific examples for a few different foot controllers and devices]

MIDI Monitoring Programs

The following programs are free MIDI monitoring applications:

Windows: MIDI-OX
Mac OS X: MIDI Monitor "

link to the article
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creating e-a7 style with a daw 07 Jun 2017 19:17 #5978

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One of the problems with the BK (and I'm guessing the E-A7) is that sys-ex for the Keyboard Parts has a different address to the sys-ex for the exact same thing in the Song Parts.

So, basically, what this means is, if you do a 'capture' using an external sequencer, yes, the sys-ex for the Style Parts will play back correctly into the Song Parts when sent by the computer. But, unless you turn your MIDI reception on the arranger to Key/Rhythm rather than Song, what you play will not sound right as to MFX and EQ because those sys-ex addresses are wrong for the Song Parts.

This also affects the BK-9's internal sequencer... If you do Makeup Tools edits, unless you 'freeze' the track (and lose the ability to undo what you have done), if you then open the style or SMF in the 16 Track Sequencer, those edits don't play. You are back to the un-Makeup'd sounds. In fact, some Makeup Tool edits (changing the sounds or EQ's on individual drums, for instance) don't transfer over even if you DO 'freeze'.

It all boils down to Roland's cost-cutting, and trying to make an arranger with more than 16 Parts (you get the 16 Song Parts and the Keyboard Parts as well, despite MIDI's 16 channel limit) without going to a full 32 Part engine, like the G1000 had.

To make things worse, the G70 had a utility that allowed you to 'Copy' EQ and MFX settings from a Keyboard Part over to a Song or Style Part. This made it simpler to record Keyboard Parts and then have them play as Song Parts while keeping the MFX/EQ settings they had. Now gone... :ohmy: I wonder what genius at Roland thought that that wasn't a good thing to have? :whistle: Now you have to laboriously hand copy EVERYTHING yourself.

There are times when I wonder if the Arranger Division is where Roland send employees too stupid to work in any of their other divisions! :evil:
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