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TOPIC: Variation change using midi CC.

Variation change using midi CC. 05 Jan 2017 04:16 #5468

  • bigalminal
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I've looked in the manual and checked out the midi implementation for my BK -9 but can't find out if midi CC for variation change can be done. It seems not, unless someone knows of a hidden command somewhere?
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. 05 Jan 2017 05:17 #5469

  • Diki
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Style division program change numbers
The following program change numbers allow you to select the desired Music Style division via MIDI. These messages need to be transmitted on the BK-7m’s Style channel (see “Style—Rx Channel” on p. 70).
If you also need to select a different Music Style, be sure to insert the corresponding CC00 and CC32 bank select values (see “Music Style list” on p. 88) before one of the program changes numbers shown below.


Music Style Divisions PC
Intro1 67
Intro2 68
Intro3 65
Intro4 66
Main 1 01
Main 2 02
Main 3 09
Main 4 10
Fill Down1 89
Fill Down2 100
Fill Down3 90
Fill Up1 97
Fill Up2 99
Fill Up3 98
Ending1 75
Ending2 76
Ending3 73
Ending4 74

Pretty weird. Only place I found this was in the BK-7m manual. Did I miss it, or did Roland simply space out and forget to include this little tidbit in the BK-9 material?
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Variation change using midi CC. 09 Jan 2017 00:48 #5471

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I found a similar spec sheet on the Roland site written for the BK 9. I spent a fair bit of time trying various Midi combinations but couldn't manage to effect a variation change. There must be more numbers to input. Help anyone?
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. 09 Jan 2017 09:39 #5472

  • Willem52
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In the Parameter Reference Guide of the Roland E-80 those are mentioned on page 18.
They should be compatible as far as the Roland BK-9 system has defined them.
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
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Variation change using midi CC. 09 Jan 2017 20:30 #5475

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Hi Willem,
I went to the web site but could not see the E80 Parameter Reference Guide. Where do I get a copy please?
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. 09 Jan 2017 20:36 #5476

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It's OK. I found the E80 download in the user files area. Still doesn't help a lot though. I have an enquiry out to Roland Australia (and even got a reply!) so will pass the tips on if they come up with the goods.
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 09 Jan 2017 21:45 #5477

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I've worked it out and can change variations 1 to 4 using midi. I'm sending the messages from OnSong via a blutooth pedal and have embedded the midi commands within the titles i.e. Verse 1 sets variation 1, chorus sets variation 4 etc or any other configuration desired. I could write all the instructions in a PDF if there is any interest, but my previous posts re using OnSong as a master midi controller have only had luke warm reception. I will only do this if there is sufficient interest.
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 09 Jan 2017 22:17 #5478

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This is quite a breakthrough. It has made my FC 7 Foot controller redundant now and I have retired it under the bed to gather dust! All the commands on the BK Rhythym list p6 (download from the Roland site) work, although in my iPad lyrics program OnSong, the program numbers are 1 less as 0 (zero) is used. OnSong is able to embed midi commands in its verse and chorus headings, so it is easy to send commands to change to var 4 for example when the chorus comes up. The only setup needed is in the midi settings where the sending midi channel needs to be set to 10. There may be other iPad lyrics programs that are midi enabled also - I just happen to use OnSong.
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 10 Jan 2017 09:51 #5480

  • Diki
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I wouldn't retire that FC-7 if I were you... there's a LOT of really useful stuff the FC-7 can do. Couple of switches to Perf Up/Down allows you to step through Performances on the fly, which opens up a world of things you can do in different sections of a song...

You can switch Bass Inv on/off as needed, switch hands free between UPR1/2, tons of good stuff. B)
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 10 Jan 2017 09:54 #5481

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bigalminal wrote:
I've worked it out and can change variations 1 to 4 using midi. I'm sending the messages from OnSong via a blutooth pedal and have embedded the midi commands within the titles i.e. Verse 1 sets variation 1, chorus sets variation 4 etc or any other configuration desired. I could write all the instructions in a PDF if there is any interest, but my previous posts re using OnSong as a master midi controller have only had luke warm reception. I will only do this if there is sufficient interest.

If the Program Change #'s are different to that BK-7m chart, sure, I'd love to know those codes....
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 22 Jan 2017 18:12 #5545

  • Diki
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Messaging is down here, so would you mind answering that last one here, Al?

Are the PC# codes that you are successfully changing style Divisions with on the BK-9 different to those I posted that work on the BK-7m?
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 22 Jan 2017 21:20 #5546

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Hi Diki,
Even Roland Australia (our nearest contact since I live in New Zealand) told me this could not be done. Here is the reply I sent to them to prove them wrong! You can check to see if the 7M is different. It is important to note that midi channel 10 must be used (10 is the standard midi channel for drums/rhythm as you probably know) as opposed to any channel for performance change.

Part A ~ Initial setup for BK9:
1. Menu>Midi>Edit system>Rhythm
2. Set the following:
*RX=on
*RX channel=10 (ch 10 must be used)
*Rhythm PC Rx=On

Part B ~ Setting the midi string to send:
Set up this string on the master midi sender (in my case it is an iPad using a lyrics program called OnSong)
* Control 0, 122@10 (10 is the midi channel as set above and must be used for this to work)
* Control 32, 0@10
*Program number - either 0 (Var 1), 2 (Var 2), 8 (Var 3) or 9 (Var 4)

Other midi numbers will work as well. Some trigger fills up and down without changing variations, whereas others add fills plus variation change. Experiment!
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 23 Jan 2017 21:12 #5549

  • Diki
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I have a feeling that you might be able to do without those NRP codes (CC0 & 32) and simply just send the PC#. The BK-7m implementation shows only needing CC32/00 codes to allow MIDI Style Change (or Performance List call-ups), but makes no mention of the CC32/00 being needed.

However, although we can see a difference between the numbers you have provided and the BK-7m chart, much of it can be explained by a different numbering system between OnSong and Roland. Hex values are often interchangeably translated as either 0-127, or 1-128. It looks like your PC changes are offset one value from the Roland ones, with the exception of Main2. Are you SURE that Main2 can't be called up by a PC#01 rather than 02?

Would you mind checking out whether an OnSong sheet can't call a Division up without those CC00/32 codes? Just send the PC code on Ch.10, see what happens. From the BK-7m manual:
The Style channel is used for receiving program
change and bank select messages that select Styles
and volume messages that change the Style’s volume.
The MIDI address of a Music Style consists of three
elements: a CC00 number, a CC32 number and a program
change number. The values assigned to CC00
and CC32 define the Style (see “Music Style list” on
p. 88), whereas the program change number defines
the Division (Intro, Ending, etc.). See “Style division
program change numbers” on p. 90.
Sending only a program change number selects
another Division of the currently active Style.
Be
aware, however, that only sending CC00 and CC32
messages (without a program change) has no effect.

If I were you, I'd try sending those earlier posted BK-7m codes, subtracting one value to accommodate the difference in hex conversion expression, for the other style Divisions (Intros, Endings, etc.) and see if they call up what the chart says they call up. If they don't work, try numbers one away... I honestly don't see any reason for Roland to have different codes for different BK models. There are no additional or missing Divisions for ANY BK model, you would expect Roland would simply copy/paste the code for this function to all models.

I have always felt that some of the Division PC# codes have a VERY useful role if you can change them yourself on the fly... Particularly the code for Intro1. While Roland's still have no Break/Fill (just a Break, which is hardly as useful) in many, maybe even most cases, triggering the Intro1 count-in (and sometime pickup) is equally musically effective. There are several programs for iPads and Surfaces that allow you to make 'buttons' on screen that send any MIDI code you want, and there are MIDI pedalboards that can do the same. So, with a bit of simple coding, no more than you have already done with OnSong, you can call up Intro1 with a simple one button/switch, rather than the convoluted two button press calling it from the front panel takes (you are usually pretty busy at boundaries like this!).

And if the Intro1 count in is too simple, it's not much work to replace it with a nice fill from the same or a similar style, and erase out the first couple of beats on the drums and bass and erase all ACC Parts, and you have a nice custom Break/Fill. In fact, if you you don't use any of the Intros (or only one), ALL the unused Intros can be fairly easily repurposed to be Break/Fills. Nice! :cheer:
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 28 Jan 2017 04:55 #5568

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Yes you are quite correct Diki - only the midi channel number (10) need to be sent along the program number. Nothing else is required.
I spent a little bit of time trying things out using the BK 9 rhythm list on page 6. The numbers work ok but dont always do what you think they will. For instance - 84 is NOT listed as doing anything, but actually mutes all sounds for one measure. I guess you'd call it a break? OnSong uses the 0 to 127 midi set so the numbers need to be adjusted by one.
Al.
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Variation change using midi CC. (Solved)) 28 Jan 2017 20:11 #5570

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The code for the Break/Mute is just below the BK7m division numbers on p.90 of the English BK-7m PDF... under 'E-Series Compatibility'.
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