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TOPIC: Migrating from BK7 to BK9

Migrating from BK7 to BK9 14 Nov 2015 00:18 #3216

So, I just received my bk9 and plugged in my USB memory stick. It seems some of the styles aren't found on the 9? I was surprised, but even more surprised my mapping per style didn't translate at all. It seems all sounds play in all regions of the keyboard. Is there an easy fix, or do I need to go song per song to repair?
Thank u,
Scott
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 14 Nov 2015 08:28 #3217

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How were you controlling the BK-7m? If the splits and layers were being dictated by the controller rather than being set by the Performance, then no, you may have to program those splits and layers anew.

It may need little more than the split parameter turned on and a resave, especially if you usually always split in the same place... Split point can Held in the Performance Hold section, I believe.

If there are styles not in the BK9 that were in the BK-7m, you have a bit of an issue... You'll probably be able to find the style online and put it on your BK9 stick, but Performances that use that style will be looking for it in the ROM section, where it won't be! You'll have to rewrite all those Performances to use the User Style on the stick.

Unfortunately, although you can use the old Performance as a template for the new one, because the resource has changed, even if you write the new Performance to the Performance List with the exact same name, it WON'T replace the original.... it will be a new entry at the bottom of the Performance List. If your Performance List is in any specific order (I like mine alphabetical), you then have to 'move' the Performance to the correct place, and then delete the OLD Performance!

What a PITA! :unsure:
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 14 Nov 2015 08:35 #3218

all the split points were in each performance. None of them were in the controller!
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 14 Nov 2015 20:11 #3219

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Ouch! I'm afraid at this point, it's pretty unlikely (read 'no chance'!) that Roland will write a new OS to fix this error. Mind you, of course, they gave no promises that Performance Lists from one model would be able to be read correctly by other models (especially a much later model), so perhaps it's not really right to blame them...

If you have an iPad, perhaps it might be quicker to edit the BK-7m Performance List in the BK-9 Performance Editor app (if it reads it, I have no knowledge one way or the other about that) than going through your List in the BK-9.

But, as I said, if you kept your split point consistent, it might be possible to simply turn the Split Parameter ON, then keep the split point as a 'Performance Hold' parameter. Even if you have 999 entries in the Performance List (how many do you have?), all you would have to remember as you call up any BK-7m Performances would be to turn on the Split.

Then re-store the Performance (with a 'replace' each time as long as it isn't a non-ROM style) each time you use a new Performance, and the job will be done.

There appear to be considerable differences between the BK-9 and the BK-7m, especially in the way they handle Splits (for instance, in the MIDI parameters, only the BK-7m has an Upper and Lower 'Range' parameter for each Part), so expecting Performance Lists to be transferable, especially between a model that came out well over two years later than the first one in the series might be a bit optimistic. I hope you don't have thousands to go through...

Do you still have your BK-7m? It might help if you have them next to each other as you do this work, just to remind you which entries had which split points, and which non-ROM styles in the BK-9 need to be Linked to the Performance. If not, feel free to send me your Performance List data (the UPS file in the My Performances folder) and I will check any entries you may not remember which ROM style used. I can also copy the ROM style and send you that, too.
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 15 Nov 2015 15:06 #3221

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Hello Scott,

I wrote a software tool to export the performance lists of my BK-7m to EXCEL files (csv lists). I can then change efficiently parameters with EXCEL (e.g. substitute parameter x with parameter y in all performances, etc.). And I can Re-convert the data then to a performance list.

As I can read and write performance lists for the BK-7m, it might be possible to help you if I would be able to add a write routine for BK-9 performance lists. Because then it would be possible to convert performance lists directly from BK-7m file format to the file format of the BK-9.

But to implement this filter I would need an example of a performance list generated dwith the BK-9. Could you send me an exaampple? Perhaps the "Music Assistant" performance list?
Then I would try it...... cannot promise that it will work. But we could try it.....
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 15 Nov 2015 19:16 #3223

wow, thank u for offering to help so much, that's cool. I have to confess, I have always sucked at excel. After spending a few more hours with it, I think that it will only take a few hours and well spent as I will learn more about the 9. On a side note, I've been a member here for about a year? After receiving my 9 I was shocked and disappointed that the keys are slightly smaller in length. What the hell?
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 15 Nov 2015 20:31 #3225

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The MA Performance List resides in ROM only... Possibly you could copy all and then import to another Performance List, which would then reside on the stick (depending on whether the BK-9 can copy that many entries in one go... I've never tried this) and you could email him that one.

BTW, slightly smaller keys than what? If you had a G70, yes, key size went down a hair, but it's pretty comparable to most arrangers in the price range (and higher). The G70 keybed was pretty unique by semi-weighted standards, IMHO the best plastic keybed on any keyboard EVER! But it also was very heavy, and needed quite a stout case to support it well. I'm afraid, to get the BK-9 down to something more affordable (remember... BK-9 is at least $1000 less than the G70) and lighter to carry (45lbs vs. 21lbs), SOMETHING had to go!

Just be glad that you didn't get a BK-3/5! Those are even smaller (again, comparable to others in their price range) and much lighter and spongier feeling. I'm afraid, once you have played a G70, it's downhill any way you go, at least with key feel! :dry:
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 16 Nov 2015 08:16 #3229

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Diki wrote:
The MA Performance List resides in ROM only... Possibly you could copy all and then import to another Performance List, which would then reside on the stick (depending on whether the BK-9 can copy that many entries in one go... I've never tried this) and you could email him that one.

In the BK -7m I can load the "Music Assistant" and then I can save the performance list. Now the "Music Assistant" is saved as performance list on the USB stick. Very fast and very simple procedure.

If this is not possible with BK-9, you can mail any other performance list.
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 16 Nov 2015 18:47 #3235

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My bad... :woohoo:

Yes, I guess you could do this too. Never tried, TBH!
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 17 Nov 2015 18:28 #3245

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I'm a newbie....just joined....but I'm interested in this migration topic. I just purchased a BK9 but still have my BK-7M. To compare Rhythm Patterns (RPs) between the BK9 and BK7M, , I put together a spreadsheet comparison of all 10 patterns -- just to see the overlap.

The BK9 has 541 RPs. The BK7m has 432. What's more interesting is that in almost every category there are new Rhythms in the BK9 that are not in the BK7m and vice versa -- Patterns in the BK7m that have been left out of the BK9. I've uploaded my spreadsheet so you can see for yourself. There are 10 tabs -- one for each RP, + a summary tab. Each tab corresponds to a particular style (Live Band, Rock, etc.) On each page you can see which RPs are new on the BK9 (color coded YELLOW) -- and which RPs on the BK-7M are not included in the BK9 (color coded GREEN). A count of the total RPs is at the top of each column (Example for Disco Dance: 84 Rhythms for BK9 and 70 for BK7M).

If I create a Performance in the BK7M and try to play it in the BK9 -- and if the Rhythm Pattern that I used on the BK7M is missing from the BK9 -- I will get this error message: "Rhythm not found" which shows up on the left display. Example: I created a song called "StartBig" using the "Classic Big Band" Rhythm from the JAZZ-BLUES section on the BK7M. Since "Classic Big Band" is missing on the BK9 -- the error message appears when I try to play it from my USB thumb drive.

So....how can I get the "Classic Big Band" Rhythm Pattern ported over to the BK9 since it's not already in ROM? It looks like the simple solution, is to choose a different RP for my song, "StartBig" from the JAZZ-BLUES section of the BK9 -- and save it as a new Performance. But I'd really like to be able to use that "Classic Big Band" Rhythm in the BK9.

Any help is appreciated -- and thanks.

John
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 17 Nov 2015 19:20 #3246

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Some styles have to listen, because several similar styles can be changed names and placed in another category
But in general you longer gratitude for the work done!
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 17 Nov 2015 19:23 #3247

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Webaron,

The solution in your case is to save first on USB key Classic Big Band style..
You read the style on USB with BK-7M. (memory pointer is on your USB key)
Then you write a performance..
The path of your style is saved on performance. and you can use it on BK-9.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 18 Nov 2015 00:14 #3250

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You might want to copy the entire Performance List, give it a new name (BK-7 to BK-9 List, whatever), and then do the style copying of those entries that use styles not in the BK-9 and re-do each entry (that uses them... the rest should be fine)

Don't forget... when you write a Performance with the same name as the original ROM version, but set it so it uses a User Style (on the stick), it won't 'replace' the original... It will be a new entry at the bottom of the List. Until you Delete the original from the List, and Move the Performance to the old place in the List (if you had them in any particular order) you will have two entries named the same, and one of them will always give you the 'Style not Found' message in the BK-9.

And it looks like you'll still have to do the splits in the BK-9 if it isn't reading split points from BK-7m Performance List.

Got to admit, it seems like Roland didn't really think too far ahead when bringing out the BK-9. For starters, not including ALL previous BK styles doesn't add up at all :ohmy: The TOTL Roland should always have them ALL... if only for backwards compatibility issues. But hey - the list of things Roland managed to mess up with the BK series is long and sad! Let's just hope that a new day has dawned. B)
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 18 Nov 2015 00:16 #3251

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BTW, nobody has yet said... do either of you doing the migration have BOTH arrangers? Or did you sell them when you got your BK-9's?
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 18 Nov 2015 22:40 #3252

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The weird thing is, Roland included (in an OS update) the ability to bring in your G70 UPS... A telling omission that they failed to do the job properly with BK-7m Performance Lists (which have the .UPS suffix, so they are essentially the same thing).

All in all, the last ten years or so of Roland arranger development has been chaotic and fractured, while Yamaha made it smooth and pain free... I suppose it might be too much to expect Roland to look at that and then correlate the sales curve of both brands? :evil:

It looks like, with the E-A7, we have a Roland 'reboot'. NOW is the time to look at how things got bad in the first place, and how those mistakes can be avoided in the future. Continuity of design and operation, easy migration from the previous generation, not dropping as many important features as you add, all those are the hallmark of SUCCESSFUL arranger manufacturers.

Time for Roland to join their ranks... :ohmy:

BTW, Roland aren't the only ones with this issue. Korg's new PA4X cannot import a PA3X songbook successfully, either. I wonder how many sales this is costing them while they fix this issue?
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 01 Dec 2015 08:51 #3289

So I GAVE UP! I couldn't overcome the smaller keys. The original issue as it turned out was on BK-7, you can set a range for each voice, I didn't see that option on the 9, only split function. Either way, I gave up. I thought I could do with 76 keys as I RARELY use all 88 even during the course of a year, BUT, still I find the notes I really wanted were a few steps above or below what they had set available on the keyboard.
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Migrating from BK7 to BK9 02 Dec 2015 21:57 #3292

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With a flexible enough controller, you can set the range for each Part there. This allows you more complex splits (overlapping splits, 2 or more split points, etc.).

If you know in advance you are likely to go higher or lower than 76 allows you, you have a couple of options. As long as it's not BOTH, a simple octave shift allows you those extra notes, and if it IS both, but you can afford an octave somewhere in the middle missing, you can use a split and transpose each Part up and down to extend the limits, at the expense of a hole in the middle. I often find I can get away with an octave above the lowest 88 notes' 2 octaves (before it gets into the mid-range) especially when doing boogie-woogie, stride, that sort of thing.

But no, there's really no getting around the change in size. If all you have ever played is a full piano, it is something to overcome! However, most pro players manage it with determination. After all, in the past, if you played piano AND organ, there was no way round the issue. You adjusted, or you limited yourself to just the one sound. Same with clavinets, synths, Mellotrons, basically anything! They ALL had different key sizes.

In truth, even the G70 had SLIGHTLY shorter whites. The BK-9's has even shorter ones. But the span is always the same. A stretch of an octave is identical. All you have to get used to is the slightly shorter span. No, it's not natural at first, but, as with any new technique, becomes easier over time.

TBH, in your case, if the use of an 88 is absolutely necessary, I'd go with the 88 AND the BK-9. The BK-7m is simply so less capable, and missing so many sounds and kits and less user friendly to operate (just those SN sounds alone are worth the hassle!) that I would hesitate to suggest you revert to the old rig. Even if you don't want a double stack in front of you while you play, you can set up in an 'L' and use both (heck, if your remote controller is flexible enough, you could have the BK-9 still in the box, hooked up!). I love my BK-7m, but given a choice between it and the BK-9 as a sound source, it's a no brainer (for me, anyway!).
Last Edit: 02 Dec 2015 21:58 by Diki.
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