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TOPIC: MIDI setup . . .

MIDI setup . . . 17 Nov 2014 23:18 #1059

My Yamaha P250 has MIDI IN/OUT sockets and also USB connection. Is there any advantage to using one vs the other to connect to the BK-7m?
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 17 Nov 2014 23:36 #1060

  • dilletant
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The only connection you need is P250 MIDI OUT to BK MIDI IN. The USB is to connect the instruments to a computer, not to each other.
I was angered, for I had no shoes. Then I met a man who had no feet.
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 00:32 #1061

dilletant, thanks for that information. However, don't I also need the P250 MIDI IN to BK MIDI OUT?
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 08:09 #1062

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JohnnyDeMichael wrote:
dilletant, thanks for that information. However, don't I also need the P250 MIDI IN to BK MIDI OUT?
The answer to your question is shown in Figure

ConnektMIDI.jpg
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 11:07 #1063

  • marko
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Your Yamaha P250 is a digital piano.
If you want to use your digital sound of your P250, you need to connect BK 7 MIDI out to P250 MIDI IN.
But beware ! All notes play on BK are sent to BK MIDI out. So you have to set your BK7 : Menu -MIDI - Parameter - Edit System - Soft Thru and you select "Piano" . "Save MIdi set" to save your configuration on User. So selecting your User, you have all your setting loaded in BK-7 ready to use.
With the connection P 250 MIDI out to MIDI IN, you can use BK styles, performances ... and of course BK sounds. In this case, the sound is on BK7 audio output . .

I hope it helps you ;)
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 19:59 #1064

Thanks for that information . . . very good to know.

Just to be clear, I currently have been using both MIDI sockets (IN-OUT & OUT-IN).
Regarding the 1/4" audio cables . . . I have BK7 OUT to mixer & the P250 OUT.

If I set the BK7 to Soft Thru & Piano, does that mean that no audio will come out of the BK7 . . . meaning the audio cables from BK7 to mixer are not necessary? Will all audio then come only from the P250?

Marko, I would be interested to know how you have configured your equipment.
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 21:38 #1065

  • Diki
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TBH, I can't see any reason why the arranger's MIDI out needs to be connected to the piano's MIDI in...

About the only reason I can think of is if you have some SMF's or styles that you have set up so they play the piano's main piano sound (you'd need a MIDI Set set up so that that particular MIDI Part gets sent out via MIDI only) rather than the internal piano sound. Frankly, I can't see that as such a significant improvement that you'd really want to bother with it.

What other data from the arranger do you want to have sent to the piano? There is little to gain, and a lot of potential problems to lose with. For instance, you might find one of the style Parts (or more) accidentally playing Parts in the piano, or possibly some sustain pedal commands or volume commands messing with the piano's setup.

The piano is going to sound no matter what... Your audio routing is correct. Audio and MIDI are two completely separate things, the audio from the piano (or the arranger) doesn't travel through the MIDI cables. MIDI is computer data (note on/offs, sustain pedal etc.), not audio.

I think, unless you have a VERY specific need, the only MIDI cable you need is from the piano OUT to the arranger IN. Until you get WAY beyond normal, basic arranger use, you don't really need the MIDI cable from the arranger OUT to the piano IN.
Last Edit: 18 Nov 2014 21:41 by Diki.
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Nov 2014 22:40 #1066

  • marko
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JohnnyDeMichael,
if you set Soft Thru to "Piano" the way is :
Note Piano keyboard MIDI OUT --> BK-7M MIDI IN with cable
In the BK-7M all notes coming from MIDI IN are sent to MIDI OUT.
BK-7 MIDI OUT --> Piano MIDI IN.
on BK-7M - Menu - MIDI- style - set TX on " OFF" to send only notes !
This is an example on using the sound of P250 and accompaniment style on BK-7M
According to P 250 user manual p 75 you can enable you to specify data type on P250 MIDI in in order to use the sound of your P250. You choose "note" on P250 and In this case, you can use BK-7M only for style (switch off all part button on BK-7).
You can of course use sounds of BK-7M switching by example UP1 (channel 1).

The audio OUTPUT from piano and audio OUTPUT from BK-7 are mixed to hear piano sound and accompaniment style.
Note : If you use only sounds and styles on BK-7M , you need only one MIDI cable from P250 MIDI OUT to BK-7M MIDI IN and you connect BK-7M audio output to your amplifier or mixer if you have others audio sources,
There are others configurations it depends what you want to do.
My equipment have several configurations. I use two arrangers (BK-7M roland and Ketron MIDJAY +) with Yamaha keyboard.
One configuration is Yamaha MIDI OUT --> MIDI IN BK-7M and MIDI OUT BK-7M ---> MIDI IN MIDJAY +
The audio from BK-7M and KETRON are mixed on Yamaha mixing console. ...
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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MIDI setup . . . 19 Nov 2014 16:22 #1067

Marko . . . perfect. I have followed your post exactly and am now able to choose voices directly from my P250 while using only the accompaniment style on BK-7M. Feeding audio from my BK to my mixer results in only sounds from the accompaniment style chosen, while the audio from P250 goes directly to mixer. Resulting sound is much improved!

When you change the parameters of a style & leave the name as is, after saving is that saved information actually saved internally in the BK? If so, is there any way to save all changes & store on the stick in case the BK gets run over by a truck?

Thanks again for your help!
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 19 Nov 2014 23:59 #1068

  • aviro
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HI into the "wizard connections" named digital piano they recommend to connect a midi out(bk7m) to midi in(piano) kabel just by the fact the BK7M send a NOTE-OFF message to your piano this wil only to silent the piano .so you will not have double sounds!

I say do not!!! because you are not able to play your p250 sound when connected!!!

use the volume parameter to kill your p250 sound


bye
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MIDI setup . . . 20 Nov 2014 17:04 #1069

After reading your post, I'm trying to get my head around this BK MIDI out to P250 MIDI IN . . . are you saying there is a risk that the BK can turn off the sound from the P250? Not sure I understand.

Anyway, I went ahead & removed the MIDI cable from BK-OUT to P250-IN, & noticed no difference. Seems to work same as described in Marko's post. So, are you suggesting to NOT use that cable? As long as there is no downside, that's fine . . . I just want to be sure that if I leave it off I don't later feel like Pee Wee in the Big Adventure when he asked where the basement was at the Alamo!

Does anyone see any downside to NOT using a MIDI cable between the P250-IN & the BK-OUT?
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 21 Nov 2014 18:06 #1074

  • marko
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On BK, you save internally only MIDI sets and all performances or styles are saved on USB key.

Using a cable between BK MIDI out and P250 MIDI in, depends on the use. By example, If you want to use the internal P250 sound or/and use MIDI code ( SYSEX, ... CC ... PC) generated by BK. That is to say with the same editor with MIDI code you can enable some effects of your piano in a single way. Of course BK can filter MIDI command on Tx.
But usually people prefer to use a single connexion between instrument MIDI out and BK7M MIDI in.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 21 Nov 2014 18:08 by marko.
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MIDI setup . . . 21 Nov 2014 19:46 #1075

  • Diki
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OK, I think I understand the issue a bit better... The idea is, for some songs you want to use the piano's own sounds, some songs you want to use ONLY the BK's sounds. Right?

A lot about the issue depends on the MIDI capabilities of your P250 (I am not familiar with this device)... If it allows you to program setups where the LH side of the split gets sent out the MIDI OUT only, but the RH side doesn't send anything and only plays the Internal sounds, and then, when you want lead sounds from the BK without the piano being layered in it can do that, too, you are good to go.

But yes, if you'd like the BK to do all the routing and switching tasks and have the Performance dictate what sounds, then you'll need that cord from the BK to the piano. Then you set Local OFF at the piano (this disconnects the keyboard from the internal piano sound engine) send everything to the arranger, and set each Performance so that, if you need the P250's piano sound (either UPR, LWR or Whole), that particular Part is set up to be a MIDI only Part (by using the MIDI Sets) and is sent back to the P250.

Be aware of one potential problem... The BK is only capable of sending PC/32/00 codes that correspond to its own internal sounds for Keyboard sounds (you can edit a style so that it sends what you want, or an SMF, but the Keyboard Parts only send Roland codes), so if you want the BK to select different P250 sounds for you, you need to carefully compare the codes the Yamaha needs to see and hope the BK has something the same. This will depend on whether the 32/00 codes (the LSB/MSB codes used for Variation sounds) are the same (or even used). If the P250 only has Capitol sounds (the main sound called up with a PC# only - no 32/00 codes) you are good to go (it will simply ignore any 32/00 codes), but if you need to send specific codes for specific sounds, you may have a problem.

All in all, if the master keyboard is flexible enough, I'd go with programming the splits and routing assignments there and just have the one cord. But if its MIDI capabilities are a bit limited, you are going to need that MIDI out from the BK connected to the P250's in. But be aware, you'll need to get familiar with programming the MIDI sets so that the BK routes everything where you want it. This will also have the upside that any SMF's you use can have their piano parts sent to the P250 (or any other sound you prefer the P250 for) while you play a different sound.

I know this all sounds a bit complicated, but once you do it a couple of times, you'll quickly get the idea...

Hope this helps.
Last Edit: 21 Nov 2014 19:48 by Diki.
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MIDI setup . . . 22 Nov 2014 04:54 #1078

Diki, thanks for a lot of information you provided. I think i know the fundamentals related to MIDI & audio and all of the never-ending things today;s equipment can do. I also realize that the ALL these MIDI devices are capable of doing a lot more than I care to do. For 95% of the songs I like to play, the voices of the P250 are preferred by me . . . and the resulting sounds from the performances on the BK are just great. So feeding the two sources to my mixer do all I need to do. I usually always have the 4 parts OFF.

The other 5% might be when I want to get the sounds from Parts on the BK (usu only the upper) . . usu just layering with P250 voices . . . or turning down the sound from the P250. About the only Part I use is the sax instruments.

I realize it is amazing how many configurations configs can be made . . but I think keeping things simple is best for me. Thanks for the info . . because I can always return to these posts and refresh myself if I want to get more technical or do other things.

Thanks again!
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Dec 2016 19:35 #5422

Marko . . I emailed my question to you also. You helped me very much a couple of years ago. I wanted to use the bk7 with my Yamaha P250. Following your instructions, I was able to use the P250 voices (piano) for my playing and the bk7 supplied the voices for the accompaniment.

I am now wanting to record . . using bk7. The recording has only what is supplied by the bk7 . . My keyboard addition is not recorded?? Do you have a way I can troubleshoot my problem? I have the output from P250 going to mixer, and the record out from mixer going to IN on bk7.

Thanks for any input,
John
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Dec 2016 20:15 #5423

  • Diki
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It should work... From the BK-7m manual:

Feel free to connect the master outputs of an external
mixing console to the BK-7m’s AUDIO INPUT sockets if
you want to record your band or the signals of an accordion,
additional synthesizers, pianos, drum machines,
etc., as well.

I would do a little basic troubleshooting... For starters, make sure your mixer is sending something to those inputs. Make sure you have the level up on the BK-7's audio ins. Make sure the mixer is ONLY sending the piano or you will end up (once it is working) recording the backing twice... once internally and once again from the mixer outs. I'd start by simply trying to record the piano alone. Make sure that works first.

TBH, I think you have found a very complicated way of trying to do something simple...

Why not connect the output of the mixer (with both the piano AND the BK running through it) to the audio ins of your computer or laptop, and use a simple record capture program (tons of good free ones out there) to record it all? Easy...

There are several 'gotchas' trying to route audio back into the BK and then recording it... one of which is to make sure the Utility parameter for transposing incoming audio is set to 'OFF' if you are using any BK transposition. Another would be to turn the Rec Level down maybe -6db so you don't overload the A/D converters.

But if you are determined to do this all within the BK, first things first... Connect the piano to the BK (NOT the mixer) and see if you are getting any pass-through at all. Simplify the connection chain so that there can be no doubt that the BK is actually getting the audio signal at its ins... Putting the mixer in the chain is only complicating the setup. You may not have the record out sending anything (recording mixers can get complicated!) or the levels too low to be heard.

Simplify FIRST, add complexity later!
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Dec 2016 20:53 #5424

I may be doing things the hard way, but I have only used my laptop to store recordings and performances as a backup.

Thanks to Marko, he taught me how to use the voices from my Yamaha P250 and the accompaniment from the BK7. To do this, I had to set BK7 : Menu -MIDI - Parameter - Edit System - Soft Thru and you select "Piano" . With the connection P 250 MIDI out to MIDI IN, you can use BK styles, performances ... and of course BK sounds. In this case, the sound is on BK7 audio output . .

This works fine except to use the BK7 to record, nothing is heard fromt the P250 voices. When I changed the P250 output from the mixer to directly to the BK7, still nothing gets recorded from the P250. However, I learned that if I choose parts (voices) from the BK7, the sounds played on keyboard are recorded. Of course, it is not the piano voice from the P250.

Thanks for your input.
JohnnyDeMichael
Last Edit: 18 Dec 2016 21:45 by JohnnyDeMichael. Reason: I'm wondering if the problem might be the midi setting of the P250 . .
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Dec 2016 22:04 #5425

  • marko
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Hello John,

Thank you very much for your comment.!
It's a pleasure to read you again.

If I understand you want to record P250 voice and BK-7M sound and or style.

To record the voice of P250, you have to plug the P250 jack output to the BK-7M input jack.
You can adjust level with audio in knob (check it with your phone plugged on BK-7M phone output)
At the end you have a mix sound of the P250 sound and BK-7M sound (style and voices).
Then plug a usb stick to record in wav format.
Switch on AUDIO REC : the red light flashes.
If you push on BK-7M start button, to record..
Push stop button to stop your recording.
Your mix recording will save on USB stick..

I try it with my TYROS sound output and BK-7M sounds with style. Recording TYROS sound and BK-7M sounds work fine for me.
P.S. I don't think your midi setting on P250 is not ok, because if it is, you cannot hear voice from bk-7M using the keyboard.
Please check if your P250 audio output works. !

I hope it helps you ;)

Marco.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 18 Dec 2016 22:22 by marko.
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MIDI setup . . . 18 Dec 2016 23:46 #5426

Thanks Marco. The fact that I had the P250 output to the mixer and hear keyboard would confirm output from P250 is working , . right? When playing live, I output P250 and BK7 to mixer and sounds fine . . hearing P250 piano. OK , , I output the P250 directly to the IN of the BK7 . . . leaving he OUT of the BK7 to the mixer. I do hear the P250 piano voice, but very low volume. I turned the AUDIO IN all the way up, but the BK7 accompaniment over-powers the P250. Does the volume of the P250 affect the sound going IN the BK7? I think I'm missing something simple.

Appreciate any suggestions,
John
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 19 Dec 2016 00:21 #5427

I'm trying to find how to balance the volume of the P250 with the BK7 . . in my case, I need more volume of P250 & less BK7.. Could it be a setting of P250?
JohnnyDeMichael
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MIDI setup . . . 19 Dec 2016 10:06 #5428

  • marko
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Hello John,

1°) First you have to check your audio cable between output P250 and BK-7M. Perhaps your cable is cut or solder on jack is not efficient..
Please change your audio cable to be sure !
I hope you use a mono câble ...
2°) Have you turn volume of P250 ? Try to modify volume to turn on high volume...
3°) If volume is not ok so try now to connect you audio cable between P250 phone jack and Audio in BK-7M ... I know that impedance are not the same, but anyway,
You can use cable with jack stereo and 2 jack mono by example
Try it and change value of P250 volume and value of BK-7M volume "audio in" to have a good result. Are they some improvements ?

Please give us your result.

Marco
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Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 19 Dec 2016 13:05 by marko.
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MIDI setup . . . 19 Dec 2016 10:06 #5429

  • marko
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Hello John,

Second way is to change the level on BK-7M recording (see utility Menu and change REC audio level )


Marko
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Last Edit: 19 Dec 2016 10:11 by marko.
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MIDI setup . . . 20 Dec 2016 02:34 #5431

  • Diki
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Basically, the BK records the same mix you hear between the BK and the piano as sent to the BK's outs. If you can barely hear the piano, you have one of several (or several!) problems....

You don't have the Audio In level set high enough. You don't have the piano turned up loud enough. The piano is getting a MIDI Volume command sent to it to turn it down. Check that the piano's MIDI receive channel defeats volume commands... try turning off both, turn on the piano, play the piano, then turn on the BK and see if it goes down in volume when you select a Performance. Same volume?

Check your cables. I'm hoping you don't take the advice to run mono..! Check that you are using normal Tip/Sleeve (TS) 1/4" cables, and that they are good on other gear. Do not use TRS 1/4" cables (balanced tip/ring/sleeve) cables.

Defeat the piano's speakers, to make sure you are not coloring your impressions with the speakers sounding while you play.

Lastly, try defeating the BK's Mastering Tools. That will tend to bring the volume of the BK down a bit, as the factory defaults bump it up and (IMHO) over-emphasize the bass and highs.

Personally, I recommend turning the Record Level down -6db, as it is possible to overload the recording A/D's without hearing it at the main outputs. Remember, not only are you recording the BK but with the piano added as well... It doesn't really hurt the s/n ratio being down a bit (you can always normalize the recording afterwards in an audio editor) but you can't fix a digital over... Err on the safe side.

(Marko... the recording level command is negative only. You can't use it to boost a weak signal. If he isn't getting enough signal now, that won't work.)

Bottom line... Turn the piano volume up to 100%. Plug it into the BK. Turn up the audio ins until there is a balance you like. If it still doesn't match, you have an issue with very low signal from the piano. Make sure there are no CC7 volume commands turning it down, if it is still a very low signal, then insert some kind of pre-amp and boost it until it does balance.

I still think, given how this seems to be perplexing you, that simply plugging your mixer into a laptop and recording the whole damn mix is the easiest way to deal with this. For several reasons....

a) you can overdub in a DAW
b) you can punch in and out in different sections with a DAW
c) you can add your voice in a DAW
d) you can far more easily see what is going on with record levels in a DAW (easy to spot digital overloads, you get no warning with the BK)
e) you are going to transfer the audio into the computer anyway after recording (hopefully for some high quality EQ, compression and limiting at least!). Why not sooner than later? :evil:
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