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TOPIC: Installation of two SRX expansions in G70

Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 03:57 #357

  • Lenilsonassaf
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My name is Lenilson ( and Brazilian ) and I am sending this because I am facing problem with the G70 keyboard.
G70 and fabulous machine. I am graduated in electronics and I work in this area. As any professional in this field, I am always trying to improve or adequate my equipment to my needs. As a student musician I wished to get a higher variety of sounds from my G70 so I started out to better understand its internal functioning. I have tried the SRX expansion boards and I`ve found some very useful sounds in the models SRX 6 and SRX 7. During my studies of the G70 design, I discovered that the SRX expansion boards are identified by addresses in the keyboard slots, and the remaining signals are the same and have the same pinout.
While the G70 accept only one SXR expansion board at a time, the E80, which is for me like a version of G70 with internal loudspeakers and one octave less, is able to work with two attached SRX boards. Also, the operational system of the E80 and G70 keyboards seems to be very similar. With all this information in mind, I decided to purchase the E80’s board with two SRX slots and connect it to the G70. Fortunately, the G70 gently accepted the board and didn’t show any error message.
To test the access to the sounds at the second expansion board, I am using some manual addressing via software like Sonar, Encore and Finale. I am being successful with this task test since I can active the sounds but the procedure is not comfortable because using this method I always must have computer connected to my keyboard. Also, when I playing or accessing the sounds using the computer I cannot test it with music because some functions in the keyboard do not operate properly.
Well, once the E80, which is very similar to G70, deal with two SRX boards, what could be done to complement the G70 in a way that it could access the second expansion using its own hardware?
Would it be possible to make some modification in the G70 operational system so it can access the second SRX expansion board just like the E80?
Would the modification have any cost?
The mechanical matters have already been solved once the board with the two slots has been perfectly fixed inside the G70 in its original position. The first SRX expansion board in the slot is perfectly accessed. The second expansion board is accessible only using external software.
What I need now is to access the second expansion board using the keyboard resources only just like I do when I use the first expansion board.
P.S.: I trial to install the E80 operational system in the G70 has not been successful since the G70 did not recognize the file.

It is very important to me to receive a feedback concerning this subject. Thank you in advance.
Lenilson
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 06:22 #358

  • loshk
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You are very brave! But such experiments can be dangerous for Roland G-70.
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 14:26 #366

  • marko
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I found your topic very interesting !

I give you here an idea ....
If you are graduated in Electronic you can understand the words below.
SRX expansions , as I understand, are memories.... memories stands with CS information:
Switching CS, you can swith memories.... you follow
With a flip flop home made circuit connecting to the keyboard (detection to switch on and off) you can manage two memories without software !!!
Beware to use a high impedance entrance for detection (use latch control circuit only)
Quite simple ! :woohoo:
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 16:31 #370

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CS - is the signal "Chip Seleсt". If this signal selected the chip on the SRX board, then the Bank, for example, in the SRX-07 and SRX-06 will be the same, but not so. as the user guide the SRX..
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 17:38 #371

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This is an interesting idea (I should have thought of it when the E80 came out!), but I feel that, without a rewrite of the G70 OS by Roland themselves, you are unlikely to ever integrate the second SRX slot into general use. And getting Roland to rewrite an OS for a product they no longer make, when it is VERY hard to get them to rewrite and update the OS for products they currently make, is basically impossible.

TBH, cracking and hacking the G70 OS is a task well beyond anybody's capabilities, especially without all the technical data about the OS from Roland (which you'll never get... these things are proprietary and secret), and trying to adapt the E80's OS is also probably impossible. The E80 had considerable hardware differences with the G70, I doubt the OS could ever be made to work.

The thing is, anyone technically capable of doing this (if someone outside Roland could) would be unlikely to want to spend the thousands on man-hours on it, given that the potential return on his effort would be so minimal. In other words, if you are smart enough to do this, you're smart enough to do something different you'd get paid good money for! Not to mention, as with all software development these days, unless it is copy protected (which the update architecture isn't), MAYBE he'd get some money for it from the first few users, but then all they would have to do would be to share the update file, and there goes any further repayment for all his work!

It's a nice idea, but I think you'd have to put this in the category of 'Nice dream'... :whistle:
Last Edit: 13 Aug 2014 18:46 by Diki.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 18:53 #372

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When using the "Chip Select" signal does not have to change the OS. Just carefully connect the wire with the switch to the electric contact "CS" on the printed circuit board SRX.
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 19:18 #375

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Either it's written into the OS, or styles or sequences that address the SRX cards, or UPG's that you use the SRX card for, you will have to manually select which one is being addressed. And some potentially horrible results if you get it wrong..! :sick:

Not to mention, how does the list of Tones get displayed in the main screen? Do the Tone names get loaded into the G70 on power up, or do they reside on the SRX card, and get looked up when you go to the page that selects them? I've never seen any lookup time, if I have an SRX card installed, the Tone List is there (in each Category) instantly.

To be honest, I see little point or improvement in a dual SRX system if both can't be addressed simultaneously. I can swap out an SRX board in seconds if I leave the access panel off. I do this at home all the time. I doubt I'd do it on a gig, but I also wouldn't want to jack around with switches to change the SRX board in a live situation, too!

The idea is to have access to BOTH cards at the same time... If not, it seems like an awful amount of work to hack an entirely new dual board into the G70 to save yourself a few seconds pulling one SRX board and popping another in.

Look, even Roland themselves, with the Integra7, couldn't figure a way to have ALL the SRX cards' sounds available at the same time. Even with the latest thing they have made, you have to chose which ones are loaded in at any one time. And anyway, why dream small? If you are going to put in multiple SRX cards, why not get the SRX mounting board from the Fantom XR...? Six SRX slots!

Dream big! :woohoo:
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 19:21 #376

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Now after such a good explanation, I absolutely agree.
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 13 Aug 2014 22:49 #379

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Lenilson,

By example
SRX 01

To help you, see below memory pins of 128M-BIT MASK-PROGRAMMABLE ROM 16M-WORD BY 8-BIT use in SRX. 01.
.
I don't explain the pins (you know it ... )
Please check with logical analyser ;) in case if Roland put a different one ....
Don't forget to synchronize your switching with internal clock.
The transition in switching is not critical (you can found some idea on the web or on microprocessor book to have better transition ....)
I cannot help you more for several reason

1°) this forum is not a hacking forum
2°) I cannot show a drawing of circuit for reason of illegal copy by the firm itself to make his business. :P
3°) I cannot support on making some change on instrument without an excellent knowledge in Electronic. I decline my responsability. :sick:
So if you are sure to have good skills in this domain it's ok for you. Go on :woohoo:
If you don't have, please stop your project.

I hope you understand my point of view.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 13 Aug 2014 22:57 by marko.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 14 Aug 2014 03:25 #383

  • Lenilsonassaf
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Hello, excuse my English because I'm using the help of Google Translator, my background is electronics, working with repair of equipment (electronic - finding bad components and swapping for good) since 1986 and repair computer hardware since 1991, my involvement with music is a hobby and therapy (not repair or play instruments in bands for a living ... it is only for my personal use). Maybe by my technical/engineering training have this habit of adapting or improving equipment for my personal needs .... of course always within the technical standards and with care not to damage; intendo so when people are afraid to pass information to lay and then feel guilty if the layman run wrong and damaging equipment. As to what I used to search (manuals, etc .....) has everything on the Internet and unfortunately we can not know if they were placed there so bidding and I am not using to make money off the work of another as this will not would be right.
Well I studied a bit of G70, E80 and SRX where their addresses are sequential and not repeated because they had a device that could install the 12 plates would work. (Check the MSB, LSB and BANK SELECT MIDI addresses)
MSB = 92 = CC00 RHYTHM
LSB = 93 = CC32 BANK SELECT TONES (Number PATH)
PATH = Set Timbre (Tone) each set consists of 128 TONES
Calculate the address of banks = MSB * 128 + LSB
Already the SRX 96, 97 and 98 have these quite different addresses where only the older keyboards recognize.
has everything in Integra 7 together, and something else, just can not access them simultaneously, I reckon, for reasons of processing and memory size, and not because of addressing, which can become expensive equipment .... more know what programs ... files ... are read ROMS, hard drives, but only run (are processed) in RAM memories. Here in Brazil one INTEGRA 7 costs R $ 6,000.00 and each SRX (1,2,3, ... 12) costs an average of R $ 450.00.
I think the Integra 7 equipment with many cool features in my opinion for those who live MUSIC is a powerful and indispensable tool, however in my case ..... Hobby ...... not worth investing that money.
The Hardware of the G70 and E80 are not so different (the Internet got its technical manuals with schematics) connectors, pinouts, etc. ..... very similar however each with its characteristics and what changes most is the Software. Is clear in thought for a board that had more than two SRX connectors and did not because of space / internal access from the G70 (which would make major changes) and there I opted for the E-80 that physical changes were minimal (two altrar screw holes without damaging electrical trails and remove a small metal frame of the bottom case of the G70 where the original cap itself would still be able to cover the increased hole.
Keep changing and destroying the SRX would end up damaging the connectors and could not simultaneously use the Tones beautiful.

*** I could not put the equi photos (follow the attached file)

***How do I put pictures here ??

File Attachment:

File Name: EmPortuguesBrasil_Roland-Arranger.pdf
File Size: 2,351 KB


At first I checked the power supply with the oscilloscope and found that gave no change in voltage through the technical manuals checked the connectors and the two flat cables (as pictured) have the same pinouts Data, addresses, control and power.
I installed everything and called the G70. The Firmware (Operating System in ROM) acknowledged the SRX only one connector that usually worked; SRX connector 2 at first stood. Searching found software (Sonar, Finale, Encore, ....) by Midi address that could solve my problem, I connected one of the G70 NoteBook into USB port and with Sonar to access all the tones of the SRX connector 2 .... activating the desired Part Keyboard and Sonar by selecting the desired Tone, at the end of the G70 setting for the music you want just save the User Program that all G70 guard and works perfectly as if it were already designed to do this without changing the hardware.
* Problems that happen and most likely will only be solved with a few changes in the OS compared to the SRX connector 2
1_ with accessing Note Keyboard Part and selecting the desired Tone you can tap the keys and the G70 had reproduced the audio with the selected SRX tone, the tone is changing by the Note and G70 answered instantly by touching the keys he had reproduced the audio selected new tone ...... to find the desired tone has to save it and then select Keyboard Part one second to the next tone .... if it is changing the Keyboard Part or any other control without saving the G70 you lost the desired tone.
2_ despite the tone selected the G70 does not work perfectly puts on display the correct name of it but enters a name of another random tone that remains there after saved.
I believe that with a few changes to the Operating System G70 only these two problems would be solved and the cost as Man-Hour developer also would not be too because Roland has already functioning in this way E-80, because this change because it worked so well in my G70 I believe this feature should already be pre configured for future versions.
I tried to open the Operating System G70 and E80 and could not ..... I do not have tools to do it and not enough knowledge, my field is hardware and not software, as seen on the internet which was developed a G-70 Session Manager software more thought someone should have tried what I'm doing.
My G 70 so this has a good time and showed no side effect is that if you understand me .......
Roland guided Brazil to get in touch with Roland Europe (where the G70 was developed for the class Easter egg), before she tried to close contact with them and the answer was that this equipment was already discontinued and no more could be done nothing ......
Would we have help from someone for this change?
I'm really enjoying the contact at Roland Arranger, good exchange information with people from other places to the end we are all children of planet Earth.

If the translation into English was difficult to understand please advise try to improve.

Lenilson
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 14 Aug 2014 17:05 #385

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Lenilsoassaf said
1_ with accessing Note Keyboard Part and selecting the desired Tone you can tap the keys and the G70 had reproduced the audio with the selected SRX tone, the tone is changing by the Note and G70 answered instantly by touching the keys he had reproduced the audio selected new tone ...... to find the desired tone has to save it and then select Keyboard Part one second to the next tone .... if it is changing the Keyboard Part or any other control without saving the G70 you lost the desired tone. .

If I understand, if you don't save on G70 you loose your set on SRX tone.
Without the SRX tone, have you the same behavior on G70 ?

Lenilsoassaf said
2_ despite the tone selected the G70 does not work perfectly puts on display the correct name of it but enters a name of another random tone that remains there after saved.
I believe that with a few changes to the Operating System G70 only these two problems would be solved and the cost as Man-Hour developer also would not be too because Roland has already functioning in this way E-80, because this change because it worked so well in my G70 I believe this feature should already be pre configured for future versions
If I understand G70 have in his memory the name of SRX and cannot address the SRX card.
You said that it is easy for Roland to solve this two problem on G70 with an update because it works well on E-80 ....
I think that Roland put only money for free update if it's worth it !!
It's worth it if THERE ARE NEW BUSINESSES but not for few people using this particular case. I hope for you I made a mistake in my thinking.
I don't know if there is a workaround ....
Perhaps somebody have some ideas ....
I don't have E-80 and G-70 but I do a research ...
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 14 Aug 2014 17:06 by marko.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 14 Aug 2014 19:27 #386

  • Willem52
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For a full compatible and fully working 2-SRX card solution on the G-70
like on the E-80, you need all the hardware like there is on the E-80
2-SRX board. Plus the needed firmware on the G-70 to have this fully
supported.

Roland does not support this and it is closed Roland firmware and no
available sourcecode. Beyond that, note that hacking into the Roland
firmware without exclusive authorization, you cannot / may not alter it.
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
Last Edit: 15 Aug 2014 09:54 by Willem52.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 15 Aug 2014 20:37 #411

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No G70 or E80 is still within the warranty period. I doubt that hacking the OS now (especially if you keep a backup of the original OS to install if you have problems) will change Roland's ability to repair it if a normal issue occurs (mind you, you fry a chip controller or something else, expect a costly repair when the entire board has to be replaced!).

However, to Lenilsonassaf I might suggest this... While it is all well and good to try to go this alone, have you even TRIED to go to Roland and talk to them about this? After all, if you COULD do something to the OS to make it accept two SRX cards, it would be in Roland's own interest to help you out a bit (if they can do this without disclosing proprietary code). After all, everyone doing this would have to order the dual SRX board, and they would sell at least an additional ONE more SRX card! That could turn into some significant sales...

And I doubt anyone with a G70 would turn down this upgrade if it was integrated into the OS seamlessly. So, an additional SRX sale (at least!) and the support board (probably worth $100 or more should they market it). Not too shabby. Mind you, you might consider that the board is no longer in production, and spares may be limited. While a great expansion idea, you have no idea whether there are enough of the parts left to make it a viable commercial consideration.

I'd say, get your house in order before you spend a lot more time on this idea. Without Roland's cooperation, you may have a very hard time turning this into something we could all use...
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 16 Aug 2014 03:46 #419

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As I'm not doing this to make money and to improve the equipment is in my personal use not yoke it something illegal, not to mention the Roland discontinued own equipment ..... of course they should not be making more cards extension of at least the same amount; even here in Brasil many people even found some interesting however are happy like this .... others think is not worth it ..... others are afraid of damaging the instrument (I've never seen software because the hardware burn burning hardware is improper physical handling and even if you change the OS and fails ..... the equipment will not work after it is installed because the firmware of any dedicated computer or not has no connection with the area addressed OS .. ., and in the case of the G70 is not working only formats it and reinstall the OS V2 or V3 manufactures again. you may have read about some errors keyboards that are generated by wrong operation of the OS that are reinstalled when the keyboards come back to work perfectly. in the example of a Desktop computer ..... we upgrade the Bios (Bios which is part of the firmware is in a specific component [EEPRON, EPRON, PRON ...] with specific addresses for the purpose only of initialize the hardware [... logic gates, flip-flops, counters reset, .....] to read the OS which is stored in memory in another group address "to which we accessed with commands resettlement midis commands , ... ") when we lowered the websites of manufacturers these updates they come inside to a specific software to access these addresses, Firmware, and make updates. This is well on computers as Desktops, Note Books and dedicated computers as are our keyboard .Por so I'm not afraid of such an attempt. Who ever formatted your keyboard by normal forms manufacturer and thinks zeroed everything that was inside it ... here comes a question ..... how he can reinstall (OS) "Operating System" from the start and organize all leaving it ready for use if it is formatted or nothing ?

("Children do not do it alone at home")

The answer is in the FIRMWARE. (Which is also a software and that is in place that do not have access)
What's not to know the G70 is that part of this command in firmeware and what is in (OS) as the command address of the SRX is in Firmware there I'll have to content myself with a Note Book stuck with it and continue to control by Sonar SRX 2 always the way I quoted it before taking the bother of having to give some commands the most so far is working perfectly and if it was not because of the physical space I certainly would have done what the friend said Diki.. ... put the card connectors Fantom SRX RX and complete it with the best SRX.

I apologize if I was too time consuming

Lenilson
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 17 Aug 2014 17:10 #449

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Lenilson,
I suggest to not change software ... ;)
Below is an idea on hardware ... :cheer:
Take care is very technic !

If you look carefully inside your G70 you have two demultiplexers.(output 4 bits) that "open" the SRX connector. The first one give the switch for the second demulplexers.
Adress number 24 and CS0 will give a gate through the second demultiplexers (you use only 2 ouputs Y0 and Y1, the others two are not connected) to SRX connector.
If you want a second SRX connector, I suggest to add the same circuit with two demultiplexers and a switch on the gate of the first demultiplexer to handle the second SRX. Of course if you switch the second SRX, you have to unselect the first SRX with a low state on CS with logical circuit.
In this project you can use one of two SRX. at the same time and you can switch the first SRX or the second SRX. The switch is made by a hardware switch. .
In this project you have to build a second circuit with two SRX connectors and a male connector to SRX connector of G70

Using the two SRX at the same time needs a modification of software and of course a little modification on hardware.
It''s highly inadvisable if you haven't tools and a good level of knowledge on expandable memory project and programming.

I hope you understand and it can help you..
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 17 Aug 2014 20:29 #458

  • Willem52
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Although the idea may seem fine, it will not work transparant and is not fully compliant.
If you should edit a style or upg for a certain sound on a SRX board, it is not quaranteed
that the sound will be there or something else... because another board could be placed.
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 00:04 #463

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All in all, it seems a very complex thing to do, when the BK-9 has got most of the decent G70 and SRX sounds in its ROM already! Not to mention a HUGELY improved (as good as a Nord, IMHO) Hammond B3 section and better drums than any G70 plus SRX combo out there.

Oh, and an MP3/WAV player, synced MP3/WAV loops, and a Chord Sequencer! Not to mention five MFX's, two for the Keyboard Parts and three just for the style Parts. Sure, it's got no touch screen, but I have found that's not a dealbreaker...

Maybe it's time to ditch the behemoth, and get something from THIS century? :evil:
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 01:21 #464

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Hello guys

Marko already tried an electronic switching, not that, and I could only enable a SRX at a time and my intention is to use tone of the two at the same time as I can with Sonar, recording they come back anytime, you can enable achieving via two hardware also works well and only tests for whether certain name will appear on the display ...... I will give a study on who sent me may be that I have forgotten something. Thanks thanks again. Not used the BK-9 still put the little I saw him taking the supernatural tones will he beats the G70 in general ... ??? ..... Besides I think the much more charming G70, was kind of love at first sight.

hugs

Lenilson
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 14:13 #471

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Lenilsonassaf said
I will give a study on who sent me may be that I have forgotten something

I 'm agree to take a look and give my opinion if you send it to me.

Lenilsonassaf said
Not used the BK-9 still put the little I saw him taking the supernatural tones will he beats the G70 in general ... ???

According to BK-9 users, it's a formidable machine with supernatural tones but looking at the characteristics, I was dissapointed :
Keyboard on BK-9 has "sensitive" keys and no after-touch keys like G-70.
After-touch gives you a vast number of music expression with your fingers..
By example, an organ sound may use after touch to increase or enable a rotary speaker effect. For strings, you can enable your vibrato with your fingers..
So you listen to something more natural ....
.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 20:52 #473

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Actually, aftertouch isn't really as important as you think it might be...

For starters, it cannot be used to toggle the Leslie MFX as stated above. There are VELOCITY actuated organ sounds where fast and slow samples are selected by how hard you hit the note, but they don't really lead to any degree of realism (you tend to often have slow Leslie samples and fast playing at the same time in the middle velocity range, and anyway, sampled organ with Leslie on is an utterly different sound to an organ playing through a Leslie.

But mainly, the Hammond sim in the BK-9 is so freakin' good, you don't use anything else! I thought the G70's Hammond was OK, but it had significant flaws. It wasn't EQ'd right (16' drawbar had no meat), the reverb send was pre-Leslie :sick: and the poor distortion it DID have was post fader, so it was impossible to have a good grind on the organ without it being overpoweringly loud. The BK-9's Hammond sim is right up there with Nord's and even Hammond's own sims... Full control over the full set of parameters (G70 had very few) including on and off click, percussion regeneration, width of Leslie mike spread, everything a full VK organ gives you. Add in five different amp types, 50's, 60's and 70's Vib/Cho characteristics, it is everything I have ever wanted in a Hammond sim.

Roland truly nailed it this time...

Back to aftertouch... I used to use it a fair bit on the G1000, but for one particular reason. I am not a big fan of static LFO based vibrato. In the real world, most players vary not only the depth, but also the SPEED of it. The G1000 allowed aftertouch to affect LFO speed as well as depth, and this led to some pretty realistic vibrato. It got dropped for the G70 (along with many other great capabilities, especially the Chord Sequencer) and so far has not reappeared. So, rather than use aftertouch, nowadays I tend to use a long delayed vibrato on solo sounds if I absolutely cannot use the bender.

Look, I was (and still am) a HUGE fan of the G70. I have two! I have been it's strongest advocate for the longest time, probably well before most of you came to the fold. If the BK-9 were not a worthy successor to it, there is no way I would be touting its superiority. Yes, just like most of you, I miss the superb action, and the touch screen. Little else, though, surprisingly. And, while the action isn't QUITE as good as the G70's, it is easily the equal of the PA3X or Tyros5 (with the omission of aftertouch) and blows the PSR S950 completely away (a horrible no feel spongy action worthy of a toy!). And don't forget... The PA3X and T5 are both well over a grand and a half MORE than the BK-9. Two and a half grand more, in the case of the T5 76!

The ONLY thing I use my G70 for anymore is pickup gigs with live bands, where I cannot prepare UPG's in advance for whatever they want to do. The extra UPR and LWR Tones come in handy, and the speed of selection the Tones gives it an edge when the bandleader calls a tune and I have to rapidly select the Tones and splits I need. Other than that, the BK-9 is my new go to keyboard. For arranger mode, SMF mode, solo work, duo work, or live band work where I can work out some setups in advance, the BK-9 has massive superiority over the G70. For as long as I have held the G70 as best, this is a strange thing. But true!

I used my G1000 for ten years before I changed to the G70. I have used my G70 for about that long. But Roland have finally brought out something undeniably superior, and I cannot justify staying with the old model. The sound is that much better... There were things on my G1000 I missed terribly. But the G70 was so much better, I had to use it. Same with the BK-9. There are things I miss from the G70. But the BK-9 is so incredibly more capable, flexible and sonically better, I HAD to use it.

I really don't think aftertouch should be a deciding factor...
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 21:37 #475

  • Wolf
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I do not know and cannot understand why Roland did not add the aftertouch to the BK-9.
The keyboard would cost a few USD or EUR more. And the players could decide if they want to use it or not.
A TOTL keyboard should have Aftertouch. That's a "must" (in my opinion). If a keyboard has not aftertouch, this is an indicator that it is not a TOTL keyboard. That the company does not want to send it in the competition with other TOTL arrangers.

Perhaps the BK-9 is better than the G-70. I think what Diki wrote is quite clear. We all know the differences. And we can weight them. Each musician will find its own decision.

But we do not have to compare G-70 and BK-9. We have to compare BK-9 and Tyros 5. And I agree, Tyros 5 is more expensive than BK-9. But the problem is not that Tyros 5 is more expensive. The problem is that Roland has no better keyboard than the BK-9. That's disapointing.
I think many of use would buy the model above thr BK-9 - but there is nothing.
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2014 21:41 by Wolf.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 23:18 #478

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If all a MUCH more expensive Roland BK added was aftertouch and the touch screen, I doubt I would buy it. Let's not forget, the Tyros5 is well over $5000US. In other words, well over DOUBLE the cost of a BK-9. That's an awful lot of money, for not that much more arranger.

The way to look at the BK-9 is not what it does NOT have compared to arrangers thousands more... The way is to look at what it has that arrangers thousands more do NOT have!

If you want to compare the BK-9 to anything, the PSR S950 and the PA900 are its competition. The S950 has a lousy, spongy, no aftertouch keybed, and yet is still the top seller in this market. The PA900 does have aftertouch, yet sells far fewer. All in all, it doesn't look like, for the majority of the arranger market, aftertouch is that big a deal.

Let's face it, the G70 and E80 did not, despite aftertouch, sell very well. The very top tier arrangers is a VERY rapidly dwindling market, and Roland's somewhat limited resources (keyboard sales are down worldwide) are probably better concentrated on the market segment that could actually amortize the R&D... If you want to look at features that make an arranger TOTL, personally, I'd start with the SOUND. For a good, punchy live sound, I'll put the BK-9 up against anything. For something little more than an E60 (which also had no aftertouch), you get something easily the equal of a PA3X or a T5.

I think it will be time for Roland to revisit the boutique, high end arranger market once the areas they are CURRENTLY in start to dominate again, or all they are doing is throw money down the drain. Personally, I think there is MUCH that can be improved in the current BK OS, before Roland go upscale. If not, all they will have is an incredibly expensive, probably pretty heavy arranger with the same issues that the MOTL arrangers already have, and little more but aftertouch, maybe another UPR and LWR Part, and maybe a VH that fails (like all arranger VH's do) to measure up to the good standalone VH's.

That's a recipe for failure.

In today's economy and market, raising the standards of the MOTL makes better sense than tossing millions away on a TOTL arranger few will buy.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 18 Aug 2014 23:47 #481

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Hi Diki,

for me it is not so obvious. There are many more Tyros 5 and Pa3X sold than BK-9. So the market is bigger for the very expensive Tyros 5 and for the expensive Pa3X than for the mid price BK 9. And the market for PSR-S 960 is much bigger than for the BK 0 (nearly same price).
So the fact that Roland cannot earn the money they would need is not a problem of the market. It is a problem of their products.

Roland tells us in their last financial report that their share of the arranger market is smaller than expected. Obviously they have already problems to earn the money they spent on the development of the BK series. So the quality or features or marketing or ... is not good enough to even earn the money they need to develop their current arrangers..

While the competitors can sell high numbers (of much more expensive boards) it is not a problem of the general arranger market.

Regards
Gerd
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 19 Aug 2014 10:07 #494

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I suggest to open another Topic if the Moderator agree ;) about this very interesting discussion in order to not change the way on resolving in this topic the installation of two SRX expansions in G70.
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 19 Aug 2014 10:22 by marko.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 19 Aug 2014 10:35 #496

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About your project, lenilson, can you suggest your guidelines on the forum to use the two SRX at the same time.
I'm convinced that a lot of G70 users are interested ....
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 19 Aug 2014 10:36 by marko.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 24 Aug 2014 06:32 #550

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Anyone interested in using two SRX simultaneously as I just do what I have mentioned earlier ......
A- In G70:
-Adquirir A logic board with two connectors SRX as the E-80 => open a little over the office of the G70 to be able to replace the SRX when you want (check the photos of the file previously attached and be careful not to open too and take advantage the original cover to close) in the exact position will have to make two holes for the screws at the ends, connect the two Flat Cable (they are different sizes which makes the mistake of exchanging them for position), before closing the G70 observe if not missed anything or forgot anything inside it.
Note To .: logic boards with more than two SRX check if you have the space available within the G70.
B- In a Note Book or Desk Top
- Install Drive G70 compatible with OS Microcomputer (Mac, XP, Win 7 or Win 8)
- The G70 should be connected to the computer only when the installer ask.
-Installing Software to address the second SRX via Midi which can be even the "Sonar" it via the USB or Midi cable to connect the G70 to this Microcomputer (Micro).
MSB = 92 = CC00 RHYTHM
LSB = 93 = CC32 BANK SELECT TONES (Number PATH)
PATH = Set Timbre (Tone) each set consists of 128 TONES
Following procedure for changing timbres via Sonar software:
C - In G70
1 After finished installing the driver on your PC, with the G70 connected to the computer, press MENU
2 Select the MIDI field
3 Select the USB field. The G70 is recognized on computer
D- In Sonar, go to OPTIONS> MIDI DEVICES and select the G-70 on "Input" and "Output".
1 Select INSERT> MIDI TRACK
2 Double-click on the MIDI track. The "Track Properties" screen appears.
On Channel 3, select the MIDI channel 4 (relative to UPPER part).
4 The number you need to fill the BANK parameter are obtained using the formula: 128 X MSB + LSB
5 Example: SRX-07 - Timbre: 76 B Gospel SRX (as of Patches table). The MSB and LSB parameters for timbres 1-128 are MSB: LSB and 93: 11
6 The account is as follows: 93 + 11 = 128 X 11915. This is the number you put in BANK
7 In Pach, enter "76" (PC Parameter G-70). To that Sonar allows you to put numbers in this field, click "Instruments" and select the "Generic (Patches 1..128)" option.
8 In INPUT place the same value or channel that was put on channal window.
9 After setting the tone, always close the Track Properties dialog box, before testing music.
To set the Tone
=> After connecting the PC to the G70 and the open sonar in the micro screen ..... also select the part you want the tone of the second SRX ...... select the desired Tone then by Sonar ..... test pressing keys on the instrument and then save User program.
=> For other parts just repeat the same steps and when burned can separate the micro of the G70 will continue to tone when you need
=> Procedures for first SRX normally recognizes the G70 without the micro however can also be activated by the same form of the second through Sonar.
.: Observations when the Tone is activated outside the G70 as in the case of the second SRX at the G70 display not appear the correct name of the tone .... appears a name of random tone that is associated with it when burned into the User Program and also has no way to access the second SRX the G70 as well as groups not appear in the names of these tones.
10 INPUT ECHO ON is the fourth of six squares that lies beneath the name of the track has to be yellow. That already on the Sonar main screen
11 If vanish monitoring or some other function after step 10: Go: (Menu, Midi, key = LOCAL OFF and then back ON with Local) if this problem persists please edit, Styles Parties and place all pages with RX to Off
12 The "Track Properties screen is filled like this:

Imagen (please see over Portuguese English = file) :(

13 After that just "touch" the file with PLAY and the tone is changed in the G-70.
The MSB and LSB data also appear at the top of the G-70 viewfinder (the board that is being recognized by the keyboard). The contents of the other board should be consulted in the manual.
As for the MIDI channel of the parts of the G-70 if you want the pitch to be selected in a different part of UPPER are:

Imagen (please see over Portuguese English = file) :(

E- Sonar can show the Timbre of SRX that is being controlled by the Micro.
You can do this by setting the instrument Sonar file. First install the definition file instrument of its SRX boards. (Srx-06.ins)
Installing the INS file - Example - SRX-06
1 In Sonar, go to Options> Instruments menu. Click "Define", then click "Import"
2 Search your computer files you just saved.
3 Select both options and press OK

Imagen (please see over Portuguese English = file) :(

4 Close the screens setting instruments
Assignment of the sounds in Sonar
1 Connect the G-70 to your computer via USB
2 Go to the Options> Instruments menu
3. Uses Instruments tick the "ROLAND-SRX06 PATCH ..." option
4 Press OK.
5 After this procedure, double-click on the track. The Track Properties screen appears.
6 At this point you can choose the tone by name
7 In BANK select the sound bank board
8. PATCH choose the timbre
9. OUTPUT select "G-70".
Thus this working on my G70 for some time without any side effects, then you figure out how to access the second SRX and to reveal the right names in the G70 can display available for those who want to update the procedures for accessing the second SRX without a PC.
Follows some ins files and a table with the SRX 6:07
I hope you understand what I'm putting
Attachments:
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
Last Edit: 24 Aug 2014 06:47 by Lenilsonassaf.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 24 Aug 2014 06:37 #551

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excuse me
now
Follow the attached files
Attachments:
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
Last Edit: 24 Aug 2014 06:45 by Lenilsonassaf.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 24 Aug 2014 06:49 #552

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Sorry but I could not enter the definition file of the instrument SRX 6-7 - 8 and 9, which I want to send by email
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
Last Edit: 24 Aug 2014 06:54 by Lenilsonassaf.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 24 Aug 2014 09:45 #554

  • marko
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Thank you Lenilson for your explanation.

You use Sonar to drive your second SRX, give a preset with User program.
The first SRX works with your G70....
This configuration give you the possibility to play sounds of the two cards at the same time. using MIDI channels. .

I haven't G70 but I suggest to other users to try these procedures to give feedback to Lenilson.
Are they some problem of sound delay using at the same time a sound coming from SRX and the other from the second SRX ?
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

Last Edit: 24 Aug 2014 09:46 by marko.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 04:11 #562

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Hello
The first SRX use directly controlling the G70 and the second control at Sonar ("can be controlled by Sonar also the first"). In this case the Sonar only serves as the second switcher SRX and the G70 is instantaneous .... selected by the timbre Sonar can tap the keys of the G70 coming out of the audio selected as the first SRX controlled by G70 tone .... the problem is that thus need a micro always connected to the G70 and whenever you use a new tone and this tone is the second SRX have to stop all ... activate the Midi or USB input ..... put or new tones .... saving in a user Program .... disable Midi or USB input .... and only after that go back to play it after recording the user program no longer needs the micro however still has a detail so in G70 screen names Tones second SRX, selected and activated, appears wrong .... which does not happen with the tones of the first SRX and Residents tones of G70. So to use the second SRX tones that have always dixar saved in a User progarm already prepared. To play live or to improvise and think only if the tone has already been another User Program, why look for a way to control the second straight SRX by G70 as the E-80. This issue of the name of tones with the definition files installed on sonar instrument greatly facilitates the G70 ....... keeps appearing wrong on screen however the micro Sonar it appears correct.
I have not had time yet to test the idea of changing your hardware Marko, I'm short on time because of my job so I can test you notice however think it will not be a complete solution.

Thank you
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 05:28 #563

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Unless I'm reading this wrong, I'm not exactly getting why anyone wants to do this mod. The G70 itself can't address the second card, so styles and internal sequencer and Keyboard Parts can't address it. So, it appears that its only use is so an external sequencer can address the sounds. Correct me if I'm wrong...

But if that's the case, a) there are inexpensive used modules that act as a host for multiple SRX cards with no problem, and b), if using a DAW like Sonor, etc., you'll get better sounds using VSTi's, possibly less expensively.

For me, anyway, the idea of two cards in my G70 that I can only address one of them if I go to a gig doesn't really impress me much. It's a cool home project, but the end result isn't a G70 with two cards, essentially an E80 with 76 keys. It's a VERY expensive module for computer use only...
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 06:45 #564

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replies
The G70 only addresses the first SRX, it does not address the second SRX alone, so I use Sonar to address only after addressed ... selected .... and enabled the Timbre ... else works normal in any of the 6 shares, as the second SRX were in the first place.

A) I bought a plate with two slots SRX here in Brazil and installed with two SRX (06 e 07) as put before and are working.

B) the Software is not only to address the SRX, when burned into the User Program can disconnect the PC, disconnect and reconnect the G70 that the Timbre continued active in the User Program.

I do not think there in Europe a plate with two SRX slots (like I used to .... E-80) is so expensive and so need not be the Sonar to address the second SRX can be any software that command Midis .
Not to depend on a micro skirt and the correct display names in the G70 I'm trying to solve this " upgrad or G70 ver 4.0," let's call it that.

In my view the E-80 was not a new tool but a G70 with some modifications, anyone who has seen them internally or their technical manuals can confirm the hardware is very little difference, the biggest difference is in the software.

Test with your G70, install a plate in the original SRX ..... sue connect the G70 to a computer with software such as Sonar follow the instructions I stated earlier via Midi and change the timbre of your SRX .... so .. it worked with the second SRX.
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 10:36 #565

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Diki said
there are inexpensive used modules that act as a host for multiple SRX cards with no problem

Please, can you give some informations about these modules ? How many SRX cards can you plug in ?
Where did tou find it ?
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 11:12 #567

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For example Synth Module:

SRXCompatibility2.jpg
Attachments:
Roland E-80 v.2.01 (SRX-01, 02, 10), Roland M-GS64, Roland XV-5050, Ketron SD-2, Edirol PCR-500, Edirol M-16-DX, Kawai MAV-8
Last Edit: 25 Aug 2014 11:19 by loshk. Reason: 3
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 25 Aug 2014 11:47 #569

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A more complete list of SRX using equipment is attached here.
Attachments:
Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820.
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 27 Aug 2014 02:49 #582

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My plate with 2 Slots SRX bought in a maintenance company of musical instruments, after the following reasoning,

Discovered that each SRX (01-12) has a specific address and unique to each ...... we also know that even equipment that have a single slot recognizes all 12 SRX SRX (then all these instruments recognize all 12 and addresses running separately). In my G70 originally had a single plate with a slot SRX and placed a plate with two slots in the case of E-80, and connectors for connecting it to the main board are the same with the same amount of tracks (data .. . addresses ... control and power) not to mention physically the internal space of the G70 and the power supply to behave; to put a plate with larger number of slots SRX eg a Fantom (depending on the Fantom SRX supports up to 6) have to purchase it before checking the physical size to see if the G70 behaves internally if the power supply supports the load and also the cable connector Connection to the main board. If all these requirements are satisfied we can acquire the desired plate.

Physically connected lacked all the way to how to give commands to switch the SRX and call the desired timbre for each part of the instrument; and is here enters the Sonar or any other software with the same features addressing via Midi.

If anyone has doubts as to addressing the Midi SRX for software like Sonar is only test on an original G70 with a single SRX card that will work.

Not tested in G70 The SRX 96, 97 and 98 and so do not know if they work and have the same area address the other 12 SRX
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 27 Aug 2014 10:53 #586

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The CPU on Fantom have a large possibility of adressing all the memories (SRX included) in the same time. and this not the case on G70 that uses a limited adresses. So the management on adressing SRX is different on the two machines.
I have a doubt that if you take the board with 6 SRX you need no adaptations with G70 and you can manage the 6 SRX at the same time. :unsure: .
To manage the SRX, the only issue is to begin a real project using a CPU as interface board which realize a virtual bank switching on SRX.. :woohoo:
It is a task which needs a very good knowledge of a team..
Yamaha TYROS 5 - Roland BK-7M - Ketron MIDJAY+ - Yamaha DGX 220

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Installation of two SRX expansions in G70 27 Aug 2014 16:47 #588

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I put this to the people who mentioned forum, for my use just the two SRX.

If I can make control of both the SRX without the G70 notebook will be satisfied.

thank you
G70 _ com SRX 6 e 7 Juntas Instaladas _ CF Card 4 Gb _ FC-7 _ KC 350
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